89.  Carmen Davailus A Story That Needed To Be Told

89. Carmen Davailus A Story That Needed To Be Told


Carmen Davailus A Story That Needed To Be Told



Carmen found her second calling in life documents the stories of families and people with dementia. Having worked40 years as a nurse, she met a couple the wife had dementia. She saw their struggle and realized how important it was to share their stories and other families like them dealing with dementia. So she documented their lives in photos, wrote a book, and started a non-profit to document and help those with dementia. Carmen faced her struggle with the disease when she was diagnosed with cancer in 2020, and she realized how isolated patients with dementia were. So she started a Youtube channel and podcast to document their stories and help them feel less alone. She reminds us to always find joy in life and hold on to that.Carlos Acosta is a father, husband, and successful business owner but life wasn’t always perfect for him. He has overcome many bricks including a divorce and a car crash that almost left him dead. He healed from his injuries with the help of his family. From that moment on his life changed he no longer takes one moment for granted. He knows that your life can change in an instant. He hosts a podcast focused on seizing the day. He reminds us to take nothing in life for granted.

Show notes:




Episode Transcription

Intro Plays



Ari: My guest today is carrying the valence. Very interesting individual. She’s a mixed media visual artist, inspiring audiences around the world with humor and a compassionate way of telling stories with images. During her 40 year nursing career, she worked with 1000s of people seeking meaning and connection during challenging times, and continues to do so with her camera. She’s an international speaker inspiring audiences using photography and storytelling, and as an award winning author of just see me just see me. hyphens sacred stories from the other side of dementia. Coma is also an Alzheimer’s slash dementia advocate and founder of doggies for dementia Foundation, a 501 c three nonprofit corporation, using photography to capture family memories and raise awareness for Alzheimer’s disease and related dementia. Doggies for dementia has been featured on both NBC and ABC. Please help me welcome Carmine de Vacas. Carmine, how are you? Good. All right. Welcome to whispers in bricks. Have you been?

Carmen: Great, great. Thank you. It’s carmine. By the way car, man.

Ari: What did I say? Car mine mine? Oh, yeah, I apologize. I did have I did have a very good friend whose name was Carmine. So I apologize for that. But Carmen like Carmen Sandiego, I guess right?

Carmen: That’s right.

Ari: Yeah. Okay. You can tell I have kids?

Carmen: That’s a good question. Where’s Carmen?

Ari: Yeah. Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego. So as you know, the name of the podcast is whispers and bricks. And the whispers are those voices telling you what the right thing to do in life is, and they represent the good in life. And the bricks represent the bad things that we go through in life. And let’s be real, everybody has a brick thrown at them once in a while. Some more, some less, some bigger, some smaller. But we all go through things. All right. And the interesting thing is that very often, we think to ourselves that when we’re going through something that that we’re the only ones going through that situation. And that’s why I started this podcast, in the first place to let people know that they’re not the only ones going through and there are others going through and there are others who have succeeded in breaking through. Now, you had an interesting life. You were a nurse practitioner, right? Yeah. But But I think your life changed when you met a couple who came into the clinic. when the wife at a young age had dementia?

Yes, yes, correct. 

Ari: Can you can you tell

us about that? Tell us what was going on. Tell us about that.

Carmen: Yeah, that was rather a magical day. For me. I’ll just say that. So yeah, 40 years as a nurse, and so I’m getting kind of close to 60. At the time this happen. And I was working in a clinic neurology, which is for specialty in dementia, Alzheimer’s, and a couple came in, they had scheduled kind of last minute it was a husband and wife and the wife had early onset Alzheimer’s disease, meaning that her stage was early. However, she was young, she was in her late 50s, I believe. So the onset for her was younger than most I mean, we think of Alzheimer’s disease affecting mostly the elderly. But there are many people that who are in their 40s 50s and even early 60s, and, and so I wasn’t sure why they had come back in and when I entered the room, they were crying really hard. And I just thought all the things that go through my mind what, what could this be? And they totally took me by surprise. Because what they had said was first they prefaced it with I know you’re not going to do this. I know you’re not going to do this because it’s too early. But the the woman with Alzheimer’s said I want to interview hospice so that when it comes to that time for me, which mind you could be yours I had, but when it comes for that time for me, I don’t want my husband to have to do this by himself. And I know I’m not going to be able to help him. And it struck me as one of perhaps the most beautiful displays of love and compassion as they’re both hugging each other and crying and dreading this horrible day that she might need hospice care or send actually running toward the end of her life. But she wanted to ease his burden and ease his pain, knowing she will be there physically, but not be there emotionally to help him with that. And it was an epiphany for me, because I had been thinking all along and meeting with families and I was very fortunate and that the group I worked for just kind of gave me if you need 30 minutes, if you need 45 minutes, whatever you need to talk to the families to support them, go ahead, which is like crazy is like unheard of in the medical field, right for nurse practitioner, and we didn’t have a lot of medicines to offer or hope of a cure. But we had our presence, and they allowed me to, to use that to the, to the best of my ability. And, and I just kept thinking somebody needs to tell these stories, somebody needs to tell these stories. And this day, and that couple, it just hit me like you, you need to tell these stories. They’re not capable right now. But others need to hear


Ari: And so you decided to step up to the plate and say, You know what, somebody’s got to write it. And I don’t see anybody around you that will so I guess I’m gonna do it now. So, but it was like, it wasn’t right away about writing the stories it was first you started photographing people, is that not the case? Which actually, which actually, in turn led you to write a book?

Carmen: Yeah, kind of my first thought was, I need to tell the stories, I need to write this book. And I am not a writer or an author, I’d written a few professional papers, but in no way knew about writing a book. But I had this, this feeling so strong, the drawing the compelling need to do it. But I couldn’t imagine doing it without the photos. And I was an amateur photographer for sure. I’d never even taken a class, the somehow like I thought I could write a book. I thought, yeah, I could do these portraits, too. And it just has to happen. We have to tell us, we have to tell the full story and show the images. And of course, there’s this time of one’s life when they have Alzheimer’s disease in the family. That’s not the first thing they think of, hey, let’s document this. And photos, you know, and, and so I knew it was kind of a an out of the box thought. At the same time, it was this calling for me that I just could not I could not ignore

Ari: And that ultimately led to as we as I read from your bio, doggies, what was it called?

Carmen: Yeah, dogs for dementia. Yeah, so just see me the book. So I followed about 13 families for about ended up being about two and a half years, almost three is my naive self thinking, I could write a book that six months, this will be done, this would be great. And of course, it took a lot longer, which was a blessing Are you because I got to know the families I met with much better he’s I read be there for birthdays, and I would be invited for holidays and for special things. And a lot changed during those two and a half years, which made the stories even even more beautiful and more full. And I said, you know, like, I would like to post these pictures and tell the stories on social media, let’s raise awareness. Because one of the common, one of the few common themes of the stories were the isolation and the loneliness, people felt and abandoned that by other family and friends and just felt like people did not understand them and what they were what they were going through. I’m like, hey, well, let’s share these stories. Let’s let’s talk about it. And so I started posting it on social media to raise awareness and into actually was a way of honoring their them and their stories, and the photos. And what I found was the photos that included the family dogs, which I was always happy to do. I’m a fan. I’m a dog lover. They were more candid and more. They were more fun and it showed more personality. And those were the most popular ones. And popularity equated to people actually reading the stories and falling in love with the families the way I did. And having that those feelings of compassion and awe for their challenges and their triumphs and that so doggies for dementia I said well what do we do then for to meet people is to include dogs.

Ari: Well, now when when did this? When did doggies for dementia actually start?

Carmen: Well, I started it. So as I wait, I kind of retired from the nurse practitioner world love photography. During this time, I got, you know, I love photography. And I love photographing and telling the stories through the images. And I essentially retired from my career, and started doing portrait photography, so photographing over a variety of situations and people and just practiced and practiced and learn and took classes. And I’m pretty sure I can have a master’s in employment now after how much work and in time and an effort but I loved I loved it so much. And so my business, Carmen’s legacy productions, I photograph the families with Alzheimer’s and, and those to telling their stories, but I did not charge them for that. That was a piece I gave to them. And then eventually, people were saying, you know, Carmen, that sounds and looks like, like a nonprofit, you probably need to separate that and make it a nonprofit, so that you can do more with it, versus being a part of your for profit business that you’re not charging for. And so that was officially, officially was March of 2020. Which, of course, we all know what happened then. But I’d been doing it for a couple years by then.

Ari: Okay, so and that that leads to my next question, because I wanted to ask you the reason I asked you when did it start was because obviously, we did go into COVID. And my question is basically, how did it affect you? How did it affect your clients? And how did it affect your business? Yeah.

Carmen: Oh, boy. So what a loaded question, Ari, thank you for that. Yeah. So I’ll you asked me first, how did it affect me, being I photograph people and I’m with with, with people, and also are very vulnerable. people with Alzheimer’s and the elderly, I really couldn’t do my, my business in that sense. at all, I was out there photographing what was happening. But as part of that storytelling, but it’s not an income earning. And, and also during that time, in fact, a year ago, at the time, around this time that we’re talking today, I was diagnosed with cancer during this pandemic time. And so I couldn’t be around my friends and family. And I lived alone at the time. And I had a real I thought I understood things pretty well what it was like to feel isolated and lonely, and people don’t understand. But certainly during that time, I got a really good firsthand view of that, and and also being hospitalized without any visitors allowed. And everybody’s wearing a mask and, and I’m being told I have cancer. So that was a rough time, which I’ve recovered from completely. So I’m really grateful for that.

Ari: So that was that was quite a brick that you basically got hit with. Yeah, no, no, it’s bad enough that you can track the cancer. But to do it during during the COVID pandemic, where you know, you’re literally all alone. But it did help you. Okay, you did hear some of the whispers, because you started to understand what others were going through. Now there’s it’s one thing to see it, it’s one thing to be in it. And you saw it initially, but then you’re actually in it. And I’m sure it just changed your whole we must have changed your whole perspective on this, correct? 

Carmen: Yeah, it did. And I you know, an effort before surgery and treatment and all I needed to go through all these screening tests. And screening tests themselves aren’t a big deal, right? But they’re scary, wondering, what’s it going to show? And, and I remember laying there and they’re going to do this cat scan and the gals are putting in the IV and they’re talking and they said so. So this is you’re having some pain or something like that. And I said, No, I have. I have uterine cancer. And they literally took a step back. And all the chatting that had happened before. And the small talk, it was just silence. And I do I cannot read their minds. I don’t know if they were feeling like oh, I should have read that or we should have known or what the thought was but that feeling when when those with Alzheimer’s would say as soon as I tell them Buddy, and families are like, they literally will back away. They did literally take a step back if the same thing happened to me. And, and the feeling that I had at that moment. I mean, tears are just coming down my eyes, not just because of what was happening, and I was alone, but because of the response. And I’m sure they were doing the best they could. And it was their response didn’t realize it. But it was, it was profound to me. I mean, it’s two years to the around this time, and around this time of year I start, it’s like, it kind of comes back to me what that was really like, which is not a totally bad thing, because it reminds me of just how, you know, blessed is used a lot, but just how, how grateful and blessed I feel to have people around and to be healthy. And that that was a one kind of a one time situation for me, which is which is different than for people with dementia, you know, it goes on.

Ari: Right? Yeah, but But it’s, you know, and your reactions around you and the anniversary of whatever, you know, whatever you’re going through, you’re no different than I think most people who have gone through something, I mean, I I get I get a little depressed sometimes around 911 I get you know, a little antsy I get, you know, I you know, I want to, you know, just stay to myself sometimes just go away and just walk by myself. So we all have a way of coping with the anniversaries. All right, but as long as we don’t let it, you know, destroy us, you know, but let us let him help us, you know, it helps to make us stronger. All right. And that is that’s what’s that’s the key. That’s what’s so important. But let me ask you this. At any point in time, in during your career, or whatever, did you ever reach a point so low, where you said to yourself, you know what, I give up, I can’t do this anymore. It’s just, I can’t for whatever reason, you know, I just want to curl up into a ball and die. But if you and if you did reach a point that low, obviously you’ve come out of it, you’ve come back, you’ve made a great comeback, and how did you do that?

Carmen: Well, I’ll talk about my second career then the photography and and an author and such with donkeys. So during the time of this, of COVID time, and not being able to photograph the families, like we have set out to do, like our mission is the other piece, I really felt like, oh, how are we going to do this? How are we going to do this, and we’re a nonprofit. So we rely on donations and, and sponsorships and things when we’re not able to do the work that we set out to do. And I thought well, I really kind of went back to what we were talking about the feelings of that isolation and loneliness. And I did a I did a Facebook, I did just kind of I did a search about isolation. And some there’s caregivers for compromise. There was a group that were primarily but not only but but many families whose loved ones had dementia and were in in they were all in some kind of a long term care where they were locked out and not able to visit not able to see their loved ones. And the more I read the more I heard their stories of they’re watching their loved ones decline where they don’t recognize them anymore. And they can see them through the windows and there are there are wondering with good reason is the is there protect protection, meaning locking the doors and not letting people in worth the results, which is people declining rapidly and not knowing their families and feeling like like, what? And they look through the window go What did I do wrong? Why am I in jail? Why don’t you come see me and heartbreaking and they they couldn’t come in they couldn’t hug them. They couldn’t see them and some wrote how they were invited in to see their loved one only in the like the last hour of their lives when they felt like it was one hour. And it flabbergasted me. I mean, I knew times were tough, but I didn’t ever think about it from that perspective. And so I started reaching out. I said, I’d love to tell your story. Tell me your story. And let’s part of raising awareness because this is a current event in our in our country. And while I can’t photograph your loved one, I can tell your story. And so we built a YouTube channel and end up in a podcast sharing Stories of areas called experts dig in with donkeys for dementia. And those are the family experts stories. What does that like? And then I did I talked to professional caregivers and, and, and psychologists and we were in a crisis here. We haven’t been in a situation like this before. We don’t know what’s the best thing. But we’re watching people die in front of us of what, what else can be done. And that was our raising awareness, which really helped mold our mission even stronger. And we adapted, we adapted till we could get out again.

Ari: Yeah, so let me ask you this, who is the one person that you can point to? That you would say had the most influence on your life? And why?

Carmen: Yeah, you know, I, I know, you say one person, I think about the, I’m gonna if I lump it into the families that I’ve worked with the, I mean, it seems almost like a luxury type thing. You have a photo shoot, you get some video of your loved one talking and conversing with you. And, and then you get these prints and, and then they’re honored. And and, you know, it it. And I thought that’s really a beautiful thing. Until I attended a few memorials and funerals. And I was there and people would know who I was, before I even opened my mouth, people I’d never met, because it was that profound and that important to them. And it is something that they would keep forever. And when I’m having hard days, you’re at my desk by myself in my sweats and for any day out, thinking, When am I going to do? How are we going to do this? I think about them. And I think about how important important isn’t even the word is so much more than that profound for them. And they describe it as you know, this, you know, a precious gift and priceless to them. And that is at the most influence because it keeps me going in spite of the challenges of a new nonprofit. Which are there over there?

Ari: Absolutely. Absolutely. Let me ask you something. Are you married?

Carmen: I am I am now I’ve been married almost a year, a year in May. 

Ari: Oh,wow. Yes. First Time?

Carmen: No, no, not the first time. Okay. Yeah. But he he was not I met him shortly after my cancer experience. I call it that it was two or three months after? Yeah.

Ari: Do you have any kids? Yeah,

Carmen: I have one son who is 35. Now. And interestingly, you know, you talk about 911 and things. And he was, I think 11 or 12. And that happened. And it you know, that’s a very vulnerable age as well. And he, from then on, said, I’m going to be in the army. And I know he wanted to do his part. And I just kept thinking maybe he’ll grow out of it. Because I was a single mom, and he was my whole life. And, but he didn’t. And he took you took his experience. And he was badly injured in war. And he took his experience and as a singer songwriter, because he found music healing. And his first many of his first songs were about that experiment about the connection he felt with his army buddies and things and, and then when he threw in what it must have been like for mom, so that was really good to hear. Because it was pretty horrible. Yeah,

Ari: wow. Yeah. So is he okay, today?

Carmen: Yes, he has, you know, he had injury. Yeah, some issues, but he’s doing really well.

Ari: That’s wonderful. That’s wonderful. And he’s put it to music. You know, music is such a soothing thing.

Carmen: And, you know, I have to say one of the things I learned, I mean, 40 years in the clinical world, and I loved what I did, but I never felt like it was it was going to be it for me. I always knew there was something else but I didn’t know what it was. And I raised him I said look at that, you know, you might be outside the box which you end up doing and but be open. I’m you just never know if your kids are listening, you know, here you are true. When he started talking about it, and he didn’t even learn to play guitar Delete. He was in Iraq. I mean, when his sergeant I think taught him and and so when he started talking about it, I think it’s a food Danger Danger, but at the same time I’m like, you know, you got to follow your heart and and take those risks and and do that, because I think they’re your biggest regrets are the things you don’t do? Not the things you do.

Ari: Yeah, absolutely. So before we go, are there any words of wisdom that you would like to share with my audience something a takeaway for my audience?

Carmen: Yeah, I think we’ve, you know, we’ve touched on it already. We talked about going through the hard times, and then coming out of it, that life is kind of this up or down rocky road, if you will. And I think sometimes we have a tendency as humans, that when it is good, that we don’t enjoy it fully. And we’re not finding the joy in it, because we’re still worried about well, what if, what if, or this could happen, or that could happen? And I knew, like, you know, I’ve heard that new moms worry so much about their newborns that they forget to enjoy the time that they’re worried about it. And I think we we perpetuate that in a lot of different ways. And, and I would say, I mean, just find the joy. And and just, you know, you may have to walk through the dark of the night at times, but find the joy and and focus on that to not just the Dark Knight focus on that joy. Also. I certainly learned that and working with the families with donkeys for dementia, we find the joy.

Ari: That’s awesome. Now, we did mention that you did write a book. Can you tell us a little bit about the book itself? Like what’s the name of it? Where can people buy it?

Carmen: Yes, yes, sure. It’s called just see me sacred stories from the other side of dementia or just see me and it’s available on Amazon. I believe it’s on Barnes and Nobles as well. And anyone who reaches out to me and said, I’d like to have one this autographed. I take care of that too. Because I know that’s kind of a special thing. And I’ve dedicated I’ve written and dedicated to various family members and mail them and I love doing that. So they could just reach out to me so my email is Carmen car and E N doggies. De og de ie s for dementia.

Dot orc. Is that for the number four or f o r? Yeah. So

dog is de OGIESFO are dementia.

Okay, so dog is for dementia.com

Okay, all right. If you go to the website, and you say contact, I’m the one who gets that. And the website is for dementia.org.

Ari: Okay, awesome. Great. So now if people want to get in touch with you, we know that they can do that we know that they can get the book. Well, Carmen, thank you so much for coming on the show. You’ve been a tremendous inspiration to me, and I’m sure it’s my audience. Thank you so much for sharing your story. You got a lot of heart. You’re very courageous woman going through what you went through and just not giving up. I think it’s absolutely amazing. So, thanks so much. Keep doing what you’re doing. You’re doing great work, the world needs more Carmen’s. That’s for sure. And again, thanks so much for coming on the show.

Thank you. My pleasure.

You’re listening to whispers in bricks and I’m your host Ari Schonbrun. Remember, if you feel like you’re stuck in the mud, like you’re spinning your wheels, wasting time, your career, your business your life. If you know you’re not enjoying all the success, satisfaction and significance that you desire. And it’s time for you to book a call with me@ www.whispersandbricks.com

89.  Carmen Davailus A Story That Needed To Be Told

88. Carlos Acosta Your Life Can Change In A Moment


Carlos Acosta Your Life Can Change In A Moment



Carlos Acosta is a father, husband, and successful business owner but life wasn’t always perfect for him. He has overcome many bricks including a divorce and a car crash that almost left him dead. He healed from his injuries with the help of his family. From that moment on his life changed he no longer takes one moment for granted. He knows that your life can change in an instant. He hosts a podcast focused on seizing the day. He reminds us to take nothing in life for granted.

Show notes:






Episode Transcription


Intro Plays





Ari: Welcome to whisper secrets. My name is Ari shoberg and I’m your host. My guest today is Carlos Acosta, or Carlos Acosta Rodriguez. He’s been an apple Consultant since 1990. He is also the creator of the podcast one day less, and the FM show sublime. He is also an audiobook producer and radio broadcaster. Carlos is passionate about his work loving everyday is experienced personally and professionally. He cares about his clients giving them the best advice so they can perform better every time with Apple’s technology. One day less is about really giving the famous words Carpe Diem, a practical meaning in your life. The Sublime show on FM radio is a good vibes time, through special messages of beautiful music from the 80s and beyond. As Carlos puts it, impulse and inspiration come from different sources. I am a car accident survivor. God left me here for a mission a new purpose. Life is a gift. Enjoy it. Please help me welcome Carlos Acosta. Carlos, how are you my friends?


Carlos: already? I’m glad to be here. And other. Thank you. For my


Ari: pleasure. My pleasure. Now, you were you were born in 1966. In Mexico, correct?


Carlos: Yes, yes. I’m Mexican. Oh,


Ari: very good. Now growing up. I understand you’re an avid tennis player, since like the age of 10. Can you tell us a little bit about that? What was you know, how did that happen? What was going on?


Carlos: Well, you know, my father loves sports, a sport available for him. So he introduced us via my my siblings to play tennis at a young age. And it’s been a pleasure for me playing that sport since then. Because it’s very competitive. You know, it’s very health healthy for the mind, you know, to, to learn winning and learn losing. It’s been a great experience for me playing tennis. Having my cramps, my friends, I’m sorry. I might, I might if it’s so.


Ari: Wow. You know, and it’s interesting, because tennis is one of those rare sports, that it’s all you. I mean, you know, there’s nobody else there’s no, you know, it’s not like a team sport, so to speak basketball, you know, there are four of the guys on the court with you. So if you’re slumping a little bit, they can pick it up. In tennis. If you’re slumping, it’s all you right.



Carlos: You know, it’s that’s the beauty and what I love tennis, because you need to finish you need to cross the line, and nobody else to stop to do in the middle of the game. You need to finish. You have to face your demons in the middle of the match. Go on. And that’s wonderful. Because that’s the that’s real life. Right? Nobody can change plays with us in general. I believe that’s something that we need to do. Right work life. So tennis is that that’s the beauty of the sport.


Ari: Wow, that’s great. Now, you are a father of two you have a son and a daughter. Right? Both are in their 20s. Now, you also mentioned that you were divorced and then remarried. So let’s start with worthy any of the two children was your first wife?


Carlos: Yes, yes. From for my first wife. It’s actually


Ari: both kids. Both kids. Yeah. Okay. And like, what happened? How long? How long were you married? Before you divorce?



Carlos: About 1314 years? And then well, it was time to pathways. Because because, you know, here in Mexico, the tradition says that you marry forever. I came in that extract type of life. And it was very difficult morally, you know, consciously because you need to Pathways against society in a way right? Right is not ready for you to say I’m going to divorce. So being divorced very hard as itself. Then you have to face society and friends and family. So it’s hard. I live to tell that. So, of course you need to go.


Ari: Right. And you went on and then you met another woman, I guess, right? Yes. And you got happily married? A wonderful


Carlos: lady. Yes. We’re very happy fangirl, and we’re thriving in life. And it’s been now almost eight years together. Oh, wow. Okay. And that’s, that’s good. Because, you know, there’s, there’s like an after life after the divorce and after life. And sometimes I say, No more marriages. For me. It was more for me to marry again and to be happy again.


Ari: That’s wonderful. Now, you started a business as a computer systems engineer in 1990. And I gotta be honest, you know, the name of the broadcast, the name of this podcast is whispers and bricks. And the whispers are, you know, the the whispers represent the good things in life, you know, God whispering to our minds and whispering to our hearts and telling us what the right thing to do is. And the bricks represent the bad things that happen to us. You know, if we’re not doing the right thing, then God throws a brick at us. It’s very simple. Now, everybody in the world, I don’t care who you are, what you are, has had a brick thrown at them at some point in time, some kind of a brick, some had more bricks, some had less bricks, but everybody goes through stuff. Now, looking at your, at your backgrounds. All right. Yeah, it’s true. You did get divorced. But then you remarried. You have two wonderful children. You’re you have a business. Things were looking really, really good. And everything was going hunky dory. And it was like Carlos, man, you got the world at your feet. You know, you’ve you’ve really got it made. And then you get hit with a major break. And I’m talking about the car accident. Tell us about the car accident.


Carlos: Well, it’s you know, it’s something that you always say, maybe you and me can say that will never happen to us. You know, this life is good. Everything is going great. It should be that way, every day of your life. And then I had a car accident. I woke woke up 10 years later asking what happened to me. I am here in the hospital.



Ari: How long? 10 days or 10 days? Yes. Okay.



Carlos: Yes. 10 days, in coma, in ICU. fighting for my life, doctors fighting for me. And family. They’re wonderful brothers who helped me when I was, you know, almost dying. And then, as I was telling you, I woke up asking what happened to me? I didn’t remember the accident to date. I don’t remember the accident. Or something. I don’t know what was in there.


Ari: So that was that was in that was January 3 of 2008. Correct? Correct. Now, you don’t remember anything. But were you were you driving? Were you? The passenger? What was what was the story there?


Carlos: Yes, it was the passenger. The driver fell asleep on the road. And then we crash into something maybe a rock maybe a wall? I don’t know. Thank God, not other carrier. Other persons. It was an I think from the road. And then they told me that happened. The driver told me that apologize to me about the accident. But you know, when you’re the co pilot, the copilot is the the chief of death. In Mexico, we always tell that when you’re besides a driver, that’s the most dangerous seat to be. Because that’s when you receive the most injuries when you you know, again, that happened, a big break in my life, something that I never imagined that could happen. And when I asked what I was doing in a hospital and told me you had a crash car accident, I didn’t believe that, you know, I pinched myself in there because I believe it was a minor. Wow. No, but nothing happens after I pinch myself. I say well, this is real. It was an accident. And you know, it was very hard for me to understand. Because you always think that only good things happen to you in your life. And so far, so good for me that year. 2008. But then reality struck me and it was very hard for me to understand that. You know, the question is what why me? Why me because I think everyone does have this right? but when it happens to you, you ask yourself, and you ask Kevin and just go and just people why me?


Ari: Why me? Right? So you had you had like, I mean, this was major, you you, as you said, you almost died, you had internal bleeding, you lost a lot of blood. I think, as from our previous discussion, you told me they had to take out your spleen. And then, I mean, it was just like, you know, you caught pneumonia, you had blood in your lungs. I mean, this was just this was not this was major major. So how long? How long were you laid up?


Carlos: Well, I was in the hospital for one month, and then three months in a wheelchair, recovering. Also, it struck me economically, I had to pay the medical bills. So it was, you know, like, six months that I was out of the normal, my normal life, fighting for physically, mentally, emotionally, you know, a big fight all those months, because you are not prepared for that you’re prepared to leave normally, like, we all do, when nothing happens in your life. And then this, and it was for me. And obviously, you know, before and after, in my life, and you do question about Locke, and life, what about, and you know, a lot of people have an opinion about what happened to you. And you will know which one to, to be the real one, to believe, right? And you have to, you have to wait for yourself, there’s no other way you have to do it for yourself, to know the truth by yourself internally, in your heart in your mind and to and to make conclusions about this episode in life?


Ari: So, let me ask you this, like here in America, you know, we have medical insurance do they have? Did you have medical insurance in Mexico? Or? And if so, you know, how much what did they cover? Did the cover anything? Did they cover most of it? Some of it? None of



Carlos: it? Yes, well, we have only what is called private insurance, you pay for it and an amount you decide with a company. But you know, to make things worse, I I wasn’t paying that insurance that I have most of my life. There is the for my tip, because it wasn’t a tip that I I had a car accident. So days before the trip, the company called me and told me, you you need to pay this bill. And I said, Well, I will pay after the trip. I was sure nothing will happen to me. You know, Murphy’s Law? Yeah, in happened. So I’ve even have my private insurance stuff. I cost me so much. There’s public public health systems in Mexico, but with a lot of these deficiencies. You know, I couldn’t be there because it was not good for my health for my recovery. Sadly, Mexico that happens, you know, the, the Social Security from the government is not very good to date. And that happened to me, and I had to pay the bills, the medical bills, and, you know, there was no other way.


Ari: Just curious, were actually because you just reminded me, like, Where were you going? You were in that car with somebody else? I don’t know who that was? Was it a friend? Was it? You know, a business acquaintance? And where were you going?


Carlos: You know, at the time, I was divorcing, also, okay, was with a lady that I thought was going to be my, my partner present and the future that at that time, right? She was driving and took a pill for a runny nose for like, and then that was the reason that she felt asleep.


Ari: Yeah. Sure, though, all those, you know, those cold medications, they they tire you out tremendously. You really shouldn’t.


Carlos: You know, and I believe it was the truth. And then I was not in Mexico, because the lady was from panama, panama the country. So I was in Panama you know, in Panama City, in the capital. And then we went to a town not far from the from the city and in the road, that that was the time of the accident. So I was very, very far from my I have relatives from my family very far from Mexico. So it that complicated? The whole? For sure,


Ari: for sure. So how well How far is it from? From Mexico to Panama?


Carlos: Went from my city. I was born to Rome. Yeah. I’ve heard right now, but in the room is 5000 kilometers away?


Ari: Oh my god. Okay. It’s a trip. That’s a trip. So you were stuck, you had to pay medical bills, right? And what I understand you sold your business, your house, like everything is literally your your left penniless, basically. All right, and you didn’t, your health wasn’t so good. And you still had two little kids to support?


Carlos: Yes. So, you know, you want not not literally, but you want to kill yourself, because you say, I am responsible for these kids. And I want them to be in, you know, I had a good life in, I was very wealthy, before the accident. And then I had to pay for everything and lost everything. So I feel very responsible for that. My family helped me a lot, thank God, they helped me and my parents, my brothers and sister, they helped me and that was, in the time that I couldn’t perform my work, you know, do anything because I was in a wheelchair, I was still recovering from a lot of health issues. So of course, it was a very dark moment in my life.


Ari: At that point, I mean, did you ever did you get to the point where you were so low that you said, You know what, I just can’t do this anymore. I don’t care my dreams, forget about it, I’m just gonna, like roll up into a ball and die. You know, just just get to that solo. And if you did reach that point, what brought you back? In other words, obviously, you came back. Alright. And you, you know, you rebuild your life? How did you manage that?


Carlos: Well, for me, it was, of course, a time of sadness and depression. And what helped me was that I am Catholic, I believe in golf. And after a while, after the accident, I knew by myself that I was lucky to be alive. The message that I was sent from heaven was the life continues gone, and you have things to do in life, I am not taking you yet. You live needs to fulfill a lot of things that are not still accomplished. And, you know, life is a gift, you know, now that, for me, that was my inspiration, you know, because a doctor also told me after the accident, you know, to wear these clothes, have time for nothing, you’re here, you know, you can think of the doctors, wherever you live, you can think, but it’s a miracle that you’re here. You do are here because of small miracles are a big miracle, whatever you want to think I got a lot of about that. And I, I concluded that that was the truth. And you know, that propels you after a long period, of course of sadness, and depression and not knowing what to do with the money with your kids with life, because I was physically impaired. But after that, you know that you’re here for a reason. Every one of us is here for a reason. And, you know, I don’t wish that you need to be in an accident to remember that to other people. Because we forget about that we take for granted a good life. And sometimes it goes away in a moment like happened that, like it happened to me. You know, the accident, maybe was two seconds, you know, when she fell asleep, and we went out on the road and we crashed. So it’s just a moment that changes your life forever. So it’s, you know, very, it’s a big impression for me. And of course, it was in a positive way that I say, I need to go on, you know, I need of course, it life will never be the same. It’s not the same anymore. But it’s not the same also for improving unit we need to improve. We need to be better for ourselves and for the ones we’ll have, the person’s will have.



Ari: Right? Absolutely. And I think, you know, this was I again, you know, as a 911 survivor, I’ve had the same situation where, you know, by the skin of my teeth by miracles, that’s how I survived. And so I knew like you that God put us here for a reason. And I think the reason was to inspire others, to teach others to tell them, you know, it’s time to start changing your ways become better. I know that you have been, you know, you’ve been very, very touched. I think God touched you in a certain way that, you know, brought you to this conclusion. And now, I understand you’re, you’re going out there and you’re doing the talking and you’re doing the speaking, you’re telling people, Hey, you don’t have to go through what I went through, in order to change learn from what I went through and make the change now by yourself. Don’t Don’t wait for you know, don’t wait for that brick. Alright, just listen to the whispers Am I right?



Carlos: Yes, totally. Believe me, you know, I have the same problems than then before the accident. But now, they are so small compared with big problems, like losing your life, right? Or almost losing your life. So I have still problems like every person, you have to pay the bills, you have bad days, you know, dark days. And that is something very different for me right now compared with after, before the accident, I’m sorry. Because now it’s a different perspective. And every day, I think God and my surroundings might be people, the people, I love that they are with me, and life itself. Because it’s, for me really is a miracle. And you know, you don’t need to be dramatic about that you will need to do something dramatic. Just go on with your life, and work and do what you have to do. And that’s it. But at the same time, you know, big problems in the past are now small problems. Or not that big. Because what now it’s a big problem is not having life. Right?


Ari: Correct. You know, somebody once said to me, don’t tell your god how big your problems are. Tell your problems. how big your God is.


Carlos: It’s like, yeah, I totally concur with that.


Ari: Yes, you’re absolutely, absolutely. For me,


Carlos: you know, I’m not 100% physical, you know, I have a my left hand, works at clinical, because I have numerous injuries in the nerves. Also, my, I don’t have the spleen. So it’s something that life goes on without the spleen, that’s great. But you don’t have either have the spleen. And also my right foot is affected because I broke my heel in pieces, my bone. So I can work, I can run I play tennis. But life is not the same. Of course, I have a you know, a big understanding about that. But I am standing up, I am driving, working making things and you know, life is a it’s a gift. Again, it’s something that you don’t know when it’s going to end we can testify that you and me and you know the people, the wonderful people you have interviewed here in your wonderful podcast, I believe they can say that. Yeah, that’s


Ari: if you had to point to one person who would you say had the most effect on your life? My father, your father? Interesting? Yeah. Why?


Carlos: You know, I can tell you that she was a saint, you know, his team started from nothing about in money or, you know, he was really cool. And he thrived through life. He had a big business. He was an example, in values, in morality, in a big example, not by telling you what to do, but doing the things he always set us to do. Doing, you know, a wonderful example of life. So my father was along with my mother, of course, because my my father is has gone to heaven, eight years ago, my mother is still here. Both of my my pillars, my, you know, the foundation of what I am, I hope I have a wealth of course, I am something better for for them to be proud of. But at the same time, they gave me the basics, you know, the to do a wonderful life. And my father, especially because maybe we are both men, you know, gave me a big example about not being like a sheep, you know, like everybody else but being special and different. In a good way, you know, do don’t do the things that other people do just because they do that not you do special things, you know, things that have value and honor and honesty, and, and go on with your life. And, you know, for me, he was the example and I miss him every day. I know he’s in good company, we hopefully will be there. You know, he was something that I learned, even when I was, you know, not that jungle, but now in a nation, like for his 50s. I remember that example from from him.


Ari: And so, let’s let’s fast forward to today. Did you start you rebuilt your business? You’re still doing the, the consulting and the with Apple and still doing that?


Carlos: Yes, yes, it and you know, of course, three years of going something, you can’t become a specialist, right? I believe that’s for everyone that dedicate to something, you become really good. You do strive for excellence in what you do. And I’m very happy for that. Because I love what I love very much what I do to help people with the Apple technology. Right. And they I have clients that are from 2025 years ago.


Ari: Wow. Yeah, those are those would be good clients, because those are the people who are probably not very tech savvy, because they didn’t grow up with technology, the way you know, some six year old kid now can knows more technology than I do. You know? And let so let me ask you something. If people want to get a hold of you, they want to either talk or they you know, they’re going through their own struggles. And they’d like some advice or whatever. Do you have like a website or an email or something people for people to get in touch with you?


Carlos: Yesterday? You know, I can share that with? You know, I’m happy that somebody can relate to us and be touched by by person like that. And I hopefully I can touch them too. And you know, my email, it’s Carlos. T. rc@yahoo.com.

So it’s Carlos TR see@yahoo.com. Yes. Okay.


Ari: In Facebook, they can find you by Carlos Acosta. Okay. Mexico a little bit,

You know. All right. Awesome. Well, Carlos, listen, I want to thank you so much for coming on my show. You have an amazing story. You were, you were definitely saved for a purpose. And what’s nice is that you you figured out what that purpose was. And that’s so important because many people go through things, and they don’t realize that they you know, they’re given a second chance, and they don’t bother doing anything about it, but you you’re given a second chance and you’re doing the right thing with it. Congratulations. You should have much success going forward. And you know, you should you’re an inspiration to, to me and to all of my listeners as well. So thank you once again, you’ve been listening to whispers and bricks, and I’m your host, Gary Sharma. Remember, if you feel like you’re stuck in the mud, like you’re spinning your wheels, wasting time in your career, your business your life. If you know you’re not enjoying all the success, satisfaction and significance that you desire. Then it’s time for you to book a call with me at www dot call with ari.com. Check out my whispers and bricks Coaching Academy. And until next time, listen to the whispers avoid the bricks and never ever give up on your dreams. Bye for



89.  Carmen Davailus A Story That Needed To Be Told

87. John Tarnoff The Second Act Is Possible


John Tarnoff The Second Act Is Possible


John Tarnoff is a career coach, especially for people over 50. He teaches people how to pivot their careers and use failures as success. A lesson that his long career in Hollywood taught him. Being a very volatile industry, he faced many job transitions for many reasons. Then, in 2001 he had a startup that struggled due to the recession. Then, he heard a whisper telling him to go back to school, which led him to his current career helping others. He reminds us that sometimes everyone needs a reset and that your second act is not only possible but great! If you need some inspiration about a career shift, this episode is for you!

Show notes:



Episode Transcription


Intro Plays





Ari: Welcome to whispers and bricks. My name is Ari Schonbrun  and I’m your host. My guest today is John turnoff. John is an executive and career transition coach, speaker and author who supports mid and late career professionals in defining, planning and achieving more meaningful and sustainable careers. I think I need this guy fired 39% of the time during his 35 years of film producer, wow. studio executive and tech entrepreneur, he learned how to turn setbacks into successes in a volatile business. He reinvented his own career at the age of 50, earning a master’s degree in spiritual psychology to share his career lessons with others going through similar challenges. Since leaving entertainment in 2010, John has coached individuals groups and led career workshops for University alumni, including for UCLA, Cornell Carnegie Mellon, corporate coaching clients have included Bank of America bridgewater associates, Levi Strauss, soft bank, TD Ameritrade and thrive global global. He’s the author of The Best Selling Boomer reinvention how to create your dream career over 50 and has created four courses on the multigenerational workforce for LinkedIn learning. Please help me welcome John. Turn off. John, how are you?


John: I’m doing great. Thanks for having me on the show.



Ari: My pleasure. My pleasure. What’s a year out where you’re in California?


John: I am in Los Angeles. Angels.


Ari: City of Angels love us. And yes, city. That’s true. That’s true. Okay, great. Well, as you know, the name of this podcast is whispers and bricks, the whispers of those voices telling you what the right thing to do is, and they represent the good in life. The bricks represent the bad things that we go through in life. Now, we all know that life is not a straight line, there are many ups and downs and many bumps in the road. People get hit with bricks all the time, the issue is trying to listen to the whispers before those bricks actually come or listening to the whispers after the bricks come. Now let me begin by asking you this. You spent 35 years in film production. I don’t know if we’re supposed to if we’re supposed to deduct the 39% of the time that you were fired. But let’s not go there right now.



John: I kept working I was fired. But I got right back up and kept on going.


Ari: There you go. Well, you know, I’m sure many people my audience would be very envious of your career. Let me ask you this. How did you break into film production? What What was that career like? It must have been like, really, really exciting. Now?


John: It you know, it is it’s it’s very tailored to cities, it’s the best of careers, it’s the worst of careers, you know, you’re working with some really talented, smart, exciting, thought provoking people creating something out of nothing, right? You’re working on large scale, collaborative industrial sized projects. There is something very empowering and exhilarating about being in film production or TV production, when it’s working. The problem with the industry is that it’s very hard to have a straight line with it. It’s a very unpredictable world, you’re trying to second guess the future tastes of the American there, the global public, and what they’re going to want to watch. And, and there’s a great line from the amazing and talented screenwriter, the late William Goldman, who prefaced his book called Adventures in the screen trade, which was his memoir, with the line. The first rule of Hollywood is no one knows anything. And it’s true, because everyone’s got an opinion, but no one really knows. So you’re you’re trying to kind of navigate in this very uncertain environment. Look, entertainment attracts very talented, wonderful people. It also attracts some schmucks and people who are in it for the greed for the power for the glamour. So you know, you’re trying to kind of wade through the muck a lot of the time to find In the gold, and it can be exhausting to do that.


Ari: That myself from my own curiosity, you were, I guess I mean, correct me if I’m wrong hobnobbing with this with the stars.


John: You know, there’s very little actual hobnobbing hub, you know, you kind of are fed a diet of it on TV, because you’re watching all of the, you know, the awards shows, or the your watch Entertainment Tonight or whatever. But you know, most, most people just kind of have their normal lives. And they’ll go out to restaurants and the paparazzi shots of stars walking around, going to the market. That’s probably a better representation of what life is really like. It’s just kind of life. And when you go to work, you work really hard. And it’s not glamorous at all, being on a film set is probably the least glamorous thing that you can imagine where you’re working long hours, six days a week, with very little sleep, shooting on strange schedules, in strange locations. And it’s strenuous work, you’re either very into it and getting the scene done, or you’re waiting around, or you’re moving from one location to another. It’s grueling.


Ari: Wow. So let me ask you this. You were you, as you said, you were fired 39% of the time that you will work in there? What would what would like what was some of the bricks that you got hit with along the way? What was sure.


John: So so the reason I talked about this 39% thing. And by the way, this, this came to me, as I was preparing for a TEDx talk, which I did in 2012, which kind of launched me on this particular direction that I’ve been going on now for the last 10 years, as a as a career coach. And I was trying to figure out, so what qualifies me to be up here talking about career transition, and career reinvention, which was the topic of the talk. And I kind of did my little calculation, I kind of listed all the jobs that I had had, and what happened at the end of that job. And so six of the jobs of the 18 jobs I had over the 35 years, six of them, I left because I went on to another job, got another offer. Five of them were things that just ended. So films that I had produced that were done consulting deals that were done, no harm, no foul, but then there were seven jobs where I was fired. And so I just did the math. And that came up to 39%. And I thought that’s a funny statistic, because who talks about the the percentage of time in your career that you got fired? No one wants to talk about that. My mother used to say to me, why are you having a hard time holding a job? Right Jewish mother wood, and, and the truth of it is, it’s a volatile business. And I wasn’t fired necessarily because I was doing a bad job. But, you know, I was working at a studio, the studio had changed. The new guy came in swept clean waters on people in, you know, all sorts of all sorts of reasons. And in some cases, sure, I clashed, you know, with, with the people, the person I was working with, or it just kind of wasn’t working out. And, you know, then the last job I had was a really interesting was a really interesting story. I was working at DreamWorks Animation for most of the 2000s doing, really, people work, not really production work. And they were changing directions after the after the the 2008 recession, the company decided was going to change a different direction that they had different agendas in terms of their finances, and how they were going to be profitable, etc. And a lot of the initiatives that I was working on were kind of fed, they were done. So I actually when I initiated this, I went to the CEOs who I reported to and I said, Look, this is a strange conversation to be having. But is there anything left for me to do around here? And she was kind of taken aback and she was she kind of turned bright red. And she said, look, look, I have to preface this by saying you’ve been great. You’ve kind of took this department and kind of created this amazing thing with our with our staff and all that in the programs that you’ve done. She said, But I have to be frank with you the way we’re going? I don’t think so. And she said, Look, why don’t you? I mean, everyone loves you here, go around, see if there’s something that that makes sense for you to do that makes sense for someone else, some some other projects, you can get involved in department initiative. And let’s see if we can keep you on. And I did that. And there really wasn’t anything I really wanted to pursue this kind of education, staff development kind of role that I had taken on while I was there, so I came back to I said, you know, I think I gotta go, we negotiated this exhibit, it was very friendly, which is kind of unusual for Hollywood where there’s so many tempers and, and stuff goes on fights break out. So you know, it’s all over the map as to why why I left these jobs. But the point of it is talking about the 39%, you got to bring it back to this is that getting fired is not fatal. Right, you’re going to recover from it. And the point of talking about 39%, is that you want to realize that in a world that’s changing so fast, you’re not going to have the same stability in your job that you had, if you’re working 2040 years ago. So you have to adjust to this and realize it’s about finding a better fit. And using that as a springboard to really drill down on who you are, what’s the value you provide, and come up with a what I call a client a candidate centric approach to taking control of your career.


Azri: Yeah, well, we know, you know, I spent the better part of my working career on Wall Street. And it’s interesting, I’ve seen the metamorphosis of, of being employed. And you know, it used to be in the old days, you, you know, you you got a good education, you went to work for IBM, you worked there for 40 years, and you’re tired and his game over. That’s right. And, and if you had a lot of little jobs on your resume, it would be suspect people would go, you know, why did you have so many different jobs today? Hopper? Correct. Today, they want to know, if you said, Why did you stay at one company for 35 years? Could you find another job?


John: That’s true? That’s true. Now, you know, and I think this goes to the idea. And I got asked this question just yesterday, by someone who said about their resume. So I’m, I’m concerned that I have all these all these different jobs. And I said, Look, there’s a pattern to this, to your career, there’s a pattern in these jobs, there’s a portfolio that you are building. And what you want to do is, look at each of the positions that you’ve had and figure out what did I learn in that position that helped me in the next one? And the next one after that? And how do they all weave together to create this, this image of who you are, what you deliver, and how unique you are through the combination of all of these different jobs that you’ve done, and use it as a strength really redefine yourself through that synthesis as a uniquely qualified individual.


Ari: Let me ask you something. Are you married?


John: I am divorced, but I am 10 years into an amazing relationship with a wonderful one.


Ari: Okay, so here’s my next question. In that time period, where, you know, during the 39%, did you ever get to a point where you were like, so low that you just said, you know, what, I give up? I can’t do this anymore. To heck with my dreams, you know, I’m gonna roll up into a ball and die. And you know, and I don’t care anymore. And if you did, if you did reach that point, so low that the next question would be is, how did you recover? How did you get out of it?


John: So I don’t think I ever seriously got to the point where I was ready to hang it up. Which is not to say that I didn’t have low points. And I will, in terms of the whispers in the bricks, I will I will give you a really perfect story. I think for this. I had a startup tech startup in the bubble 9019 9095 into 2001. April 2001, the NASDAQ tanks, everything starts to deteriorate.


Ari: We in this era, I remember it well.



John: Well, yeah, sure you do. Yeah. And so all of a sudden, most of our investors in this company were east coasters, and they all of a sudden, three guys call us up and say we’re coming out tomorrow. Let’s we gotta get together. We got to cross everything off your calendar. Were coming out. So these guys came out. And they basically said, look, you’ve got to reorganize. You’ve got to, you know, going to take another close look, yes, you’ve got this big deal. We had this big telecom deal going on this technology that we were doing, which eventually went away, because everything tanked after this. I mean, people were going to fight me you remember this, so? So coming out of that, I thought, What am I going to do? It’s now it’s now 2002 My partner and I have been trying to kind of keep this company going with with with toothpicks and spit. And we’re kind of barely surviving where we’ve got some staff, we’ve got a sales guy, we’ve got some, some engineers, we were just kind of going job to job. It’s not sustainable. And I come home one afternoon, one Friday afternoon, and I lived at that time in the Hollywood Hills, nice little house that I’ve had since 1981, you know, had got married in that house raised my daughter in that house. And I’m out, we got this cute little swimming pool in the backyard, and I’m raking leaves out of the out of the pool, on a Friday afternoon, and I slip I fall into the pool, I cracked my leg on the way down on that side of the pool. And I hold myself out of the pool and and my ex wife comes running and group drags me into the car takes me down to Cedars Sinai Hospital and patches me up. And then the next day or so I’m sitting in the in the living room. And I’m kind of staring at the ceiling, I got my leg up on on the couch, I’m thinking, what’s what, what’s going on here? What what is the message? And a voice says to me, I got the whisper, go back to school. Wow, literally. And I thought, Okay. And I realized in that moment, I thought, Okay, this is right, I need to shift my perspective. Because I wasn’t gonna go back to the jobs that I had had, working for the studios, I’d kind of like put that behind me, I didn’t really, you know, keep up with a lot of these people. I wasn’t interested in that work anymore. But I didn’t know what I wanted to do. So the voice said, go back to school. So I decided to go back to this spiritual psychology program that I have known about, which was set up as a way for, in many cases, older professionals who were looking to pivot to careers in counseling to do this, but a lot of people who I knew some people that graduated from this program, they weren’t just because they needed a life change, they needed a refresher, they needed to kind of drill down on who they were, what their value was, where they should go. And this is how I got the DreamWorks job, because I changed my attitude about myself about what I want it to do about how I presented to the world. And it was an invaluable experience. It was a it was a pattern interrupt, right, it was a reset. And sometimes you need that reset, you need something to really take you out of the way you’ve always done it. Right, because it is likely wrong. If you keep doing it the same way over and over again, things change, you want to change with the way things are going you want to you want to upgrade yourself to the next level. So that’s kind of the kind of a poster experience for for career reinvention.


Ari: Wow, you know, it reminds me of when, when I used to I had, you know, good people that were reporting to me. And, and it was like, you know, I’d ask a question, like, you know, why are you doing it this way? You know, because to me, whatever they were doing didn’t make sense, right? Whatever it was. And I said, Why are you doing it this way? You go, and you know what the answer is? I’m sure

you because we’ve always done it this way. This is the way

we’ve always done it. Yeah. Yeah, I go. Do you know what the definition of insanity is? I go what I said, doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. That’s insanity. People, this is what you’re doing. Okay, you’re all insane. Right, I hear you. So, you know, I hear let me ask you this. Who is the one person you would point to to say that had the most influence in your life and why?


John: You know, it’s gonna be a strange answer. But, but


Ari: I’ve heard a lot of strange answers to this question. So don’t worry about it.


John: It’s my it’s my daughter. I have a 29 year old daughter


John: that a strange answer. I like it, who is


John: who is just a complete inspiration, who has been through her own trials and tribulations as you might expect, young millennial growing up in today’s world, but she has just demonstrated this quality of self awareness, resilience, and a some kind of a willingness or an ability to, to understand her limits, understand how far she could go without going too far. And it has been it’s not been easy for her necessarily, and she’s done a lot of healing out of out of what happened between her her mom and me and, and she’s done an amazing job and I just have this tremendous gratitude for her and For, for the human being that she has become known as becoming.


Ari: Wow. That’s That’s pretty amazing. That’s really, really amazing. Let me ask you something and this is for my own personal knowledge. You’ve heard of Stephen Hill. He used to he was an actor. He was sure


John: absolutely Mission Impossible. Stephen Hill. Yes. Yes, absolutely.


Ari: Okay. My question to you is a Did you ever meet him? No. Okay. A


John: little bit a little bit before my time. Okay. Interesting.

: I got the business a little bit later than that.


Ari: Yeah, I just I find it interesting. He was an Orthodox Jew. Yes. Yeah. And,


John: and they, and they actually, they actually rearranged the production schedule, on Mission Impossible to let him leave early on Friday to go to services.


Ari: Yeah. Yeah, I always found that fascinating. And I think he had he had an effect on on a lot of Orthodox Jews, because if he could make it in television, right, why not me, you know, and people’s writing and people people went on like that. So I found that fascinating. I heard once I never met him, he lived up in Muncie, New York. And I heard somebody once tell me that they had asked him about, you know, Hollywood and everything else. And he goes, stay away. Just stay away, you know? Yeah. Which, you know, but you know, and then I always think to myself, you know, it’s always easy. It’s always easy to say that, when you’ve been there, right? You know what I’m saying? But if you haven’t been there, it’s like, yes, they always show up. Because just because you had a bad experience doesn’t mean I’m gonna have a bad experience.


John: And that’s true. I think that the interestingly that I think that the business is getting as gotten a lot more. Well, it’s a word normal, a lot more a lot a lot friendlier, perhaps a lot less club wish than it used to be. And behavior I think is improving a little bit, I think the you can’t get away with being a screamer, the way you used to. And, you know, stories of, of executives throwing telephones and assistants, and literally, that just doesn’t happen anymore. And I think one of the great things about living in an age of increased transparency is that it’s harder to get away with bad behavior, which is good.


Ari: Yeah. Although I will tell you that that still exists on Wall Street, or at least it was still it’s still existed four years ago. That’s when I left, right. I mean, guys throw in telephones breaking screens, you know, getting all you know, it was it happens. And I stress


John: I stress. Yeah, yeah. But I think it’s getting better. I mean, you’re sure you’re still you still have people who are doing this and who is there. Some guy in the in the in the Biden administration just resigned the Science Guy, because he apparently was toxic with people. Yeah, yeah, complaints. And


Ari: so let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. If somebody came up to you today and said to you, John, you know, how do I get to Hollywood? How do I make it what? You know, what, what kind of advice would you give them? If any, what would you pull the Stephen Hill thing goes stay away?


John: No, I would say look, I for for 10 years, up until last year, I was co running a graduate program in entertainment management panel in Los Angeles for Carnegie Mellon. And it’s a it’s a great program. And it’s for for young people who want to be on the business side of entertainment across film, TV, music and games, streaming, you know, everything that it’s becoming and the the truth of it is there is a real business here and if you are interested in being on the business side and you find the the the art and commerce, the intersection of art and commerce fascinating, which I certainly always did. There is definitely a way through it through school through working your way up through the through the trainee programs and internship programs. And whether you’re trying by being in on the business side or being on the creative side. You want to be really proactive about deciding what you like what your what your what your what your orientation is. What are you What are you interested in? Are you interested in comedy interested in drama you like sci fi? You like you’d like TV, like movies like music? And, and build a team build a network of people around you peers. People who can Be supportive. And and work your way up. And it’s it’s definitely possible to do it and you can build up a great group of people around you and a great team and a great career.


Ari: Wow. All right. So then let me ask you this, let’s let’s say with this if people want to get in touch with you, whether they want career advice, whether they want coaching, whether they want, you know, just to schmooze just to say, Hey, I spoke to that guy. What would be the best way for people to do that? Yeah, but Website, Email, what are


John: the two things I would suggest? The easiest thing is to is to find me on the website, which is, strangely enough, John turnoff.com. So JOHNT, ar, N O F F as in frank.com. And you can also find me on LinkedIn, there’s a lot of information about my practice on career coaching on my LinkedIn site. So you just search for me on LinkedIn, and it’ll come up and I guess I have the I have the good luck to have an uncommon name. So there aren’t too many John turn offs out there.


Ari: Yeah, I was, I was gonna say, Well, John, thanks so much for sharing your story with me and my audience. I wish you all the luck in the world going forward, I know you’re doing a lot of good because you’re helping a lot of people, you know, career changes and the like, you know, you get to be our age. And you know, some people they whatever, they get stuck and they don’t know where to go and who to turn to or whatnot. And you’re filling a very, very needed void that that we avoid that needs to be plugged basically and you’re you’re taking care of that and my hat’s off to you and I I wish you all the best going forward.



John: Thank you. Thank you, Ari Thank you for having me on the show thank you for for helping spread the the message that the second act is possible it is accessible and and there are ways of going out and doing it and claiming your you know, your your sustainable future.


Ari: Thanks so much. You’re listening to whispers and bricks, and I’m your host, Ari Schonbrun. Remember, if you feel like you’re stuck in the mud, like you’re spinning your wheels, wasting time in your career, your business your life. If you know you’re not enjoying all the success, satisfaction and significance that you desire, then it’s time for you to book a call with me at call with ari.com and check out my whispers and bricks Coaching Academy and until next time, listen to the whispers avoid the bricks and never ever give up on your dreams. Bye for now.

89.  Carmen Davailus A Story That Needed To Be Told

86. Deanna Kuempel Embrace The Struggle

 Deanna Kuempel Embrace The Struggle


Deanna Kuempel is a serial entrepreneur who has owned several successful businesses both by herself and with her late husband. She has faced several bricks from being a victim of domestic violence and human trafficking. To losing her husband and having to start over. To the successful podcast host with a job she loves and a fiancee. Her story reminds us that we must keep going when times get tough. She reminds us not to dread the inevitable able struggles in life but embrace them.

Show notes:


Episode Transcription

Intro Plays



Ari: Welcome to whispers and bricks. My name is Ari Schonbrun. I’m your host. My guest today is Deanna Campell. Deanna was born and raised in the Chicagoland area. Prior to meeting her husband, she had a small event planning business, and offered Personal Training Services. Later on, she was vice president of key accounts and business operations for a $20 million transmission remanufacturing facility with 150 employees, while simultaneously managing for other entities for 10 years. In 2016, she was forced to start over, she always had a passion for fashion and so she engaged a design company out of Soho, New York, and founded the Deanna Marie label in 2017. Deanna was on the runway in Rhode Island at style week, and was a finalist for stylish Chicago for the Cadillac designs challenge. She subsequently rolled out a skincare line in conjunction with our label, and still successfully as a steady client base with that to this day. In 2019, Deanna started a podcast, Deanna started a podcast, Deanna had overcome much abuse and trauma. And so she decided on the name label free, with the help of her best friend, Julie Brian, Deanna truly lives her life, free of any kind of labels. She focuses on talking to mainly entrepreneurs that are living life on their own terms, and can offer insight or and wisdom for the audience. Her podcast is currently in the top 2% globally, on several platforms, she is streaming on 15, audio platforms and YouTube. Please help me welcome Deanna Campell.

Deanna: Thank you, Ari for having me as a guest today, sorry about the stupid talk in the background. And we just hit New. And so that’s just my that’s what the opener for me today.

Ari: There you go. It’s a beautiful thing. So how are you doing?

Deanna: I’m doing great. Thank you for the generous introduction and the recap of my life so far. Yeah, it’s always it’s always it’s taken me a while to actually get to a proper bio, because it’s very challenging to self promote. And to put that together, because I feel if you’re a humble person, it’s, you don’t really don’t acknowledge all of your successes.

Ari: I hear you. But you know what, as somebody once said to me, if you don’t toot your own horn, who will? So that’s what we got to do. That’s what we have to do. Yeah, so I’ve got some interesting questions. But as you know, the name of the podcast is whispers and bricks, and the whispers of those voices telling us what the right thing to do is, and they represent the good in life. The bricks represent the bad things that we go through in life. And we all know life is not a straight line, there are many ups and downs and many bumps in the road. There are bricks out there that we get hit with some bigger bricks, some smaller bricks, some more bricks have less bricks, but at the end of the day, you know, everybody goes through something. Now, you seem to have had a very successful career Early on, like from the event planning business, personal training, to VP of transmission, manufacturing remanufacturing business for other entities. Can you tell us a little bit about what life was like back then? Like, how old were you when all this started? And you know what was going on?

Deanna: Um, so I was with my late husband for about 17 years before he passed. You know, obviously, we dated for a few years before we got married. But I was involved in the business in his business, probably like around 2000. And let’s see her six maybe, I know, maybe earlier than that. It’s hard to recollect but for you know, for over 10 years, we had he had a remanufacturing business for transmissions we serviced like all the blue chip clients, customers like FedEx ups, you know, the yellow school buses all over the nation and in Canada, waste haulers, you know, here in US and Canada. So we had a very good customer base. We did do some dealers, like the Cat Dealers, International Truck dealers, things of that nature. But I started out you know, he, he kind of fought me a little bit when I wanted to start with the company. And I was just like, well, this is my life, too. I want I’m gonna get involved. So I’m like, I’ll go to the first meeting, because he had to, he had to start over. He had one business for, I think over 20 years. And then when 2008 came when the economy crashed, he lost that business. The bank had actually pulled alone, we ended up losing like $10 million. And then we had to restart. And there was a lot of things that I had known after committing my committing my life to Him. And so I was like, No, I’m gonna be there for the for the first meeting when we restart, then we were up until like three o’clock in the morning fighting because I was like, I’m no, I’m going to be there. I’m like, I’ll just sit there, I’ll be quiet. And I’ll just observe. And so, you know, as we started rebuilding, and I started getting more involved in the business, he was like, I completely underestimated or you underestimated yourself. Yeah, you did. So I, it became very apparent that I was a natural leader. And I started taking a lot of things over to make the business successful, as well as a lot of our other businesses. And we had started in installation arm to unite, you know, I pushed that, and I was the driver behind that as well. So it was, it was fun. I look back now it was hard, because we had we were, we had lost $10 million. And to rebuild out that was a struggle, not gonna lie, but to have gotten through it. And to reach some of the success milestones in my career with him. I look back and like, holy crap, I did that, you know, in the moment, I’m just, I’m just going, just going. And so I learned a lot. Manufacturing is not something I really enjoyed to be in. I’m not a car person. So it wasn’t sexy to me. You know, I was not interested in the talk about the solenoids, and all this crazy stuff. I’m like, the gears and I don’t know that it wasn’t my thing. I was strong in the operations. I was strong with customer or customer and supplier relationships, very involved in almost every aspect of the hiring, firing. And, you know, just all of that. So I had a lot of experience for about 10 years until he passed.

Ari: So So let me ask you this. Like, when did you meet your husband?

Deanna: We met at the gym. So yeah, we met at the gym. So one of my girlfriends knew him. She came in to visit me there. He saw her. And I had actually had asked to meet me and I I was not interested because I just gotten out of a very abusive relationship. And I needed to just declare clear all that baggage because I couldn’t sustain another relationship like that. So I probably he probably came, pursued pursued me for about six months.

Ari: Oh, wow. Okay, so you just mentioned something that I did not really know about. Something about a bad relationship, abusive and trauma, basically, that’s why you came up with the name free label phrase label free. Right. Well, what was that all about? I don’t know anything about that?


Deanna: Um, well, I mean, we all have a past some of our pasts are better than others. You know, I had I grew up in with, you know, I had strong family values from my mom’s side, and my dad was he’s got a chemical imbalance. He’s not okay. He’s not all there. He was a deadbeat father, you know, I’m the oldest of five. So I have four siblings. He ended up skipping out on us when I was like 15 years old, and never pay child support. But I perpetuated the vicious cycle that I saw at home because he was very abusive to my mother and to myself, I had ended up calling the police on him and about 15 and got him removed from the house. And that’s when my mom finally filed for divorce. But unfortunately, because of my experience, I got into the relationships that were very abusive. And you know, I ended up being a survivor of human trafficking. So I survived that. The last when I said I couldn’t do another abusive relationship. He had actually abducted me one night or one day we’re going to skydiving drove out to Middlefield stabbed me in the arm, I have a scar on my eye from him beating me up. Luckily, I fought him off and I was able to get out of out of the car. And he, he I got back home, and I survived that. And so that was when I was just like, no more, I can’t do it. I cannot keep living in this bad cycle. And you know, I wanted a better life for myself. So So yeah, that was the point of, you know, drastic change for me. And I got into counseling and I just completely got myself out of that whole lifestyle and in created a different life.

Ari: Wow, wow. I’m gonna say this, and I know you know, this, okay, but you’re not alone. Oh, I know.

Deanna: Okay. All right. I’ve been I’ve actually interviewed a bunch of people who have gone through exactly what you have gone through, you know, at different stages of their lives. So when they were kids, some of them were middle aged, some of they were older. So, you know, again, my hat’s off to you that you you know, you took a stand you did what you needed to do in order to get your life back in shape. And that’s, you know, again, my hat’s off to you. Congrats on that. Okay, so then you met So you met your husband, you were a little skeptical there because of the because As of your past, okay, well when you over

the persistence, he was very persistent. Yeah. Although in the beginning, after I finally gave him a chance, he was not innocent either. And, you know, we went through a very rocky period to where to where I finally was, I would open myself up completely to Him and pursue that, because he was a big steroid person. He’s a big bodybuilder, you know, basically a steroid addict. And that’s, that’s what ended up killing him. Ultimately, he needed his he needed his third kidney transplant and had he had a had open heart surgery. Towards the end, it started out he was in the hospital once a month than it was every week than it was at the end. He was he died there, because he had he had been there for over 30 days. And his body was just so toxic. And that’s what really killed him. Because he, you know, he didn’t take care of himself. Even when I was administering dialysis, he was still injecting steroids. He thought like that was, you know, that was going to help him. So that was not fun.

Ari: Wow. So you got hit with a brick early on. In the in the bad relationship, you’re in your family life. You know, your life kind of turns around, you meet this guy, and he’s, you know, he’s great. And then all of a sudden, he’s not so great. And then he is good. And then all of a sudden, you know, he gets he gets sick. And wow, and then, you know, he passes on, and how long have you been married? At that point? Did you say 17 years?


Deanna: We were together? 17 years, I honestly was not in any hurry to get married? I’ll be honest with you. Yeah, he bothered me. He bothered me for a while to set a date. And I mean, probably for a couple of years. I was engaged for quite a while. But we’re married for I think, seven of those 17 years. So we dated for almost 10 years.


Ari: Wow. Now, you mentioned I think I mentioned in your in your bio that in 2016, you had to start over? What was? What was that? Because you mentioned 2008 your business when you know, the business went belly up. And during the crash, what was going on in 2016?


Deanna: He passed away in January 7, I believe it was January 7 2016.

Ari: And so Wow, get hit with that brick. So I guess so what did you do at that point? I mean, you know, well, I

Deanna: was in survival mode. So the you know, the typical story where you have money, I was living in the mansion, he had the Ferrari had the Mercedes, all that stuff. Were you know, he had kids from a previous marriage, they all came in, they wanted, they were trying to evict me out of my home, they were trying to make me leave with none of my belongings. And essentially, they kicked me out of the business, all the businesses plural. And so I ended up you know, I ended up agreeing to leave because I had owned a townhouse prior to getting married, and I held on to it, luckily. So I ended up negotiating my time to leave. And I moved out of the house taking what I had purchased with him and my stuff, which was very difficult to do, because they were trying to make me leave with nothing. And we lived in, we lived in a gated gated community, so no one could come in and see me like I had to have people I had to go pick them up and bring them in, or they would jump the fence to come to come see me and come like help me out with stuff. So like I had to go jump into the tow truck to tow truck driver or not tow truck, the movers truck to come in grab, like move my stuff out of the house, it was a very, it was a very intense traumatic time. And you know, luckily I was able to, you know, all this stuff is just part of our story. You know, it’s a part of our journey, it really molds us into you, we can decide, are we going to be a better person? Are we going to make better choices for our lives that make make everything better? Or are we going to continue down this destructive path and keep keep attracting things that are going to keep us in this vicious cycle. So luckily, I moved out, I got to start over. I use a lot of the resources out there that mean there’s tons of resources out there for anyone that’s struggling. I had gotten some help on my mortgage at my townhouse. And you know that I didn’t have to pay my mortgage for like two years. Thank God, you know, unfortunately, I did have to go the food pantry because I was below poverty. I had no money and I had to keep my lights on. And it was just, you know, my mom had given me a car because they took my car for me, you know, cuz he bought me a Mercedes that was not in my name. And I shouldn’t I didn’t think about it at the time. But it was a gift to me. That was my car. But they heard the terms of the estate. That was the title, the title was in his name, and they were able to take it confiscated and do whatever they had to do with it. You know, I had a motorcycle too. I had my own motorcycle, but that because my name wasn’t on the title. They were able to take that. However, luckily my name was on a lot on all the businesses so I had interest in all the businesses and they had to basically buy me out. You know, I mean that that was a pain in the butt to negotiate. But, I mean, ultimately, we ended up winning some thing, you know, at the end of the day, and it was rough, I had to hire like three attorneys, I was gonna create three different things just for that whole, like that whole situation. Luckily, I was smart enough to do that, because the one didn’t know what to do. And I’m like, Well, I’m not going to, I’m not going to settle, you know, I deserve something. So I had to go and use my resources and find another one. And it was a, it was an intense time period. But you know, I, you know, I’m resilient, and I’m smart. So I was able to, you know, I got a new job wasn’t the best, but I think when you’re starting over, you’re gonna get more of a menial job, you know, and it was it worked for where I was at, at the time, because Emotionally, I wasn’t very stable. And, you know, I had actually hadn’t worked for anybody since I was 16. So I went from being a complete entrepreneur for 20 years of my life, to having to work for someone that was a very rough adjustment, that was very difficult. That is very difficult.


Ari: I can imagine, I can imagine, let me ask you this. Did you ever reach a point in your life where you, you know, like, it was, it was so low that you went like, you know what, I can’t do this anymore. I’m giving up you know, I’m, I’m giving up on my dreams, I don’t care. You know, I’m just gonna, you know, roll up into a little ball and die. Right? Or, but if you did reach that point, and I know many people do even without, you know, the things that that seemed very, very difficult. But if you did get to that point, how did you get yourself out of it? You’re obviously you did, because you’re a functioning human being and you’ve got business and you’ve got, you know, you’re doing everything. Right. So how do you tell us a little bit about that.

Deanna: So I think I’m very strong, you know, and sometimes I’m able to cut off my emotions and just be a little numb, which is probably to my benefit in a lot of ways. And I had a lot of people ask me that, after all that had transpired, and everything was going through legally, and just, you know, just losing that whole lifestyle be completely like float, like, just tear me down to the, to the ground. I think that there were moments when I did think like that, that I just want to give up, but my personality, you know, you I just when I when I have a bad emotion, I allow myself to feel it, but then I let it go. I think that’s one thing that a lot of people that get caught up in all that don’t know how to do, they haven’t taught themselves how to do that. They get caught up in that and they, they just get comfortable in that misery. And in that, in that sadness, I’m not comfortable there. I’m a very happy person. I’m very bubbly. I like to I’m very going, I want to achieve things. I’m driven. So I would let that I would feel that emotion. I’d get mad or whatever I had to do and then I would let it go. And then the next day, tomorrow’s a new day love what can we do tomorrow? And I just kept going, you know, what are you gonna do? You just gotta let sit there in the corner and not do anything. Are you gonna end up in a hospital somewhere? rocking back and forth? No, that’s not an option for me. I’m sorry. Like, I have a big life to live and I’m going to do I have goals. I have dreams. And you know, you can’t get caught up in that and those terrible emotions because feelings aren’t facts. Right? The The fact is that you’re still alive. The fact is, you’re unhealthy that in the fact is I have another chance another day to make my life better.

Ari: Wow. I don’t remember if I asked you do you have any children?

Deanna: I have no children. But I’m getting remarried. I’ve met an incredible man. Probably the best men I’ve ever, ever known. And we are planning on having starting a family. So


Ari: that is, that’s awesome. That is absolutely awesome. Nice guy.


Deanna: Very nice guy. Yes. He was like a police officer. So you know. Oh, wow. I bet you better watch out.

Ari: Oh, wow. No, my hat’s off to him. I am off to all, you know, police and firefighters in the life. I mean, these guys are the real heroes in our world today. All right there. It’s unbelievable. You please let him know that. My hat’s off to him. And I wish them only the best. And just from you know, from the just getting to know you. I know. I’m not really sure who’s getting the better part of that deal. But I think you’re I think you’re both getting the best of best of both worlds. That’s what I think. Let me ask you that half.

Deanna: I totally agree.

Ari: Yeah. Let me ask you this, who’s the one person that you would point to that you would say had the most influence in your life? And why?


Deanna: When at what point because there’s different influences at different points in my life. You know, obviously,

Ari: any point in time pick one

Deanna: I’d say in the most recent the last five years the one that’s had the most positive impact has been my my best friend Julie green Bryant, who is also my booking manager. She I met her at my second job after my life change and she is incredibly intelligent woman. And she looks at things very differently and the way she communicates I’ve learned a lot from her. And she’s just kind of gone through this whole rebuilding journey with me and she’s seen me at my ups and downs, you know, along the way, and to where I’m at today and she’s been a very Major grounding force for me, and then kind of helps me look at things, you know, because I can get pretty worked up. I’m very,

I’m pretty intense chi I never would have known.

Deanna: So, you know, I love to turn to her because she helps ground me and like, helps me like, stay calm and look at things differently. Or, you know, I used to have a tendency to kind of flip my flip my lead, and I don’t do that anymore. And I’d say I owe a lot of that to her.

Ari: Oh, wow. Okay, that’s great. What does she do?

Deanna: Well, she actually she stays at home. She takes care of her mother in law. But she does. She’s my booking manager for the podcast. So she, she loves it. Yeah.


Ari: Wow. Okay, that’s great. That’s great. So let me ask you this, before we go is do you have any words of advice, words of advice, or words of wisdom for my audience, you know, because again, the reason I do this podcast is because I know that there are people in my audience that are going through some of the things, some of the same things that you’re going through. And, you know, sometimes they lose hope. And I enjoy having people like you on my show, because you’re the type of person who can give hope. So what kind of words of wisdom to the I have my audience out there?

Deanna: You know, I learned, I learned to embrace the struggle, because it during that time is, you know, like how, you know, Cole turns into a diamond. And you’re getting all that pressure and pressure and pressure until it turns into a precious stone, your experiences, the struggles that you go through is actually putting that pressure on you to turn you into a beautiful diamond. Or if you want to look at it as going into a cocoon and turning into a butterfly, embracing the struggles where you’re going to learn the most valuable lessons and become a better version of yourself. Instead of the Woe is me. Oh, I feel sorry for myself, why is it happening to me? Instead, say, You know what, there’s a reason why I’m going through this right now. This is just a part of my journey. And God has given me gifts to take forward in my life so that I could possibly be, you know, a ray of sunshine for someone else. So that’s the best advice I can say is because when you get to that place, and you just embrace it, you know, miracles start to happen in your life turns around, and you can view things so much differently.

Ari: Wow, you’re obviously a believer in God. Which is great. Do you consider yourself a religious person?

Deanna: I’m not overly religious, you know, I don’t go to church every you know, every Sunday. I you know, I do read the Bible. I do pray, you know, but yeah, I’m a religious person. It’s I think it’s very important to have to have God in your life, you know, who are whatever religion that might be for people out there. But I feel that having spirituality is very important to important to having a healthy, you know, Outlook.

Ari: I look, I agree with you, 100%. I mean, I’m an Orthodox Jew. All right. And my religion is what’s the is the thing that keeps me grounded, for the most part. All right, and it helps me through all the, you know, the issues that that I’ve gone through in my life. Yeah, so that’s great. So what exactly are you doing right now?

Deanna: Right now in my life professionally, or? Yeah,


Ari: yeah. And you’re in your life right now. I don’t mean sitting there talking to me. I know you’re doing that right now.

Deanna: So I’m a Business Development Manager for IT people network. We are an IT consulting and advisory company we do we work with Fortune 500 companies globally. I’m also a podcast host for a label free podcast. So that’s, both of those things take up all my time. You know, and I’m also you know, fiance, so it’d be, you know, wife and a mother soon. So yeah, my plate is full.

Ari: Wow, that’s great. Deanna, I gotta tell you, Oh, if people want to get in touch with you, how would they? How can they do that? You have a website, you have email, you know, what’s the best way for them to contact you? If they want advice they want you know, they just want to talk to somebody, they need some help.

Deanna: Yes, I would love to reach out to me Do not hesitate. I’m not shy. I embrace everyone that comes my way is labeled free podcast.com. Or I’m on Facebook, Instagram label free podcast, or my personal handle Deanna Campbell, which that will be changing soon. But you know, that’ll redirect regardless. And I’m on LinkedIn. So you can label free podcasts on LinkedIn, or Deanna Campbell as well. So connect with me reach out with me reach out to me. I would love to talk to anyone and everyone

Ari: right now. Just so my audience knows. Deanna is D A N N A? Campbell que UEMPEL Correct. That is correct. Wonderful. Okay, so that’s great. Deanna. Thanks so much for sharing your story with me and my audience, or good luck going forward. It’s except you’re, you’re entering an exciting time in your life. I know that. Okay, I can see you the smile just radiates. All right. I’m so happy for you. And I wish you only the best. Thanks so much for coming on my show. I really appreciate it and so does my audience. Thank you so much. Sorry. You been listening to his prison breaks and I’m your host Irish showman. Roman. Remember, if you feel like you’re stuck in the mud like you’re spinning your wheels, wasting time and your career, your business or your life, if you know you’re not enjoying all the success, satisfaction and significance that you desire, then it’s time for you to book a call with me at www dot call with ari.com. Check out my whispers and bricks, Coaching Academy, and until next time, listen to the whispers avoid the breaks and never ever give up on your dreams. Bye for now.


89.  Carmen Davailus A Story That Needed To Be Told

85. Hans Kullberg Cherish Every Moment

Hans Kullberg Cherish Every Moment


Hans Kullberg, an author and entrepreneur, went through every parent’s nightmare. His 10-month-old daughter died. He describes his grief journey, what helped him get over this large brick, the whispers that kept him going, and what he learned. He also describes a near-death experience he went through in his 20’s. Now he does many things to honor his daughter’s life, including a children’s book and always striving to be the best dad he can be. He reminds us to cherish every moment with our loved ones.

Show notes:


Episode Transcription


Intro Plays




Ari: Welcome to whispers and bricks. My name is Ari Schonbrun. I’m your host I have with me today as a special guest Hans Kohlberg. Hans is an author specializing in children’s books and parenting books. Also a serial entrepreneur has is a loving father of four wonderful children, and prides himself on being a father first and foremost, cherishing every moment of his fatherhood journey, making up silly fantastical tales of dragons, race cars, flying unicorns and laughing llamas at bedtime. Every night is just part of his parents of his parents hood duties, due to the unexpected tragedy of losing his daughter Aviva. At 10 months old. Hans is motivated to share his fearless character, fun loving spirit and vivacious personality embodied through an orangutan and baby Aviva orangutan diva. Even though she is no longer here to meet friends, Aviva can still change lives and create positive impact through the messages of this book, including overcoming adversity by using your inner strengths, never judging a book by its cover, and staying true to yourself. That is your dad’s ultimate hope and motivation for writing. To bring smiles to children all over the world, while sharing his daughter’s beautiful story and turning sorrow into a wonderful legacy. Knowing intimately how precious life is. His mission is to help other parents embrace the wonderful experience of parenthood to the fullest, always cherishing our children by leading with love. In addition, through sharing his story about the most difficult tragedy a parent can imagine. He hopes to bring attention to the often overlooked grieving journey, and how supporters of bereaved parents can provide comfort simply by showing up. Grief is a process that society in general, does that necessarily embrace well. And through an upcoming book on the grief journey. Hans hopes other bereaved parents will be adequately support supported during the time they need it most. To please help me welcome Hans Kohlberg Heinz how are you?


Hans: I’m doing okay. All right. I’m doing okay.

Ari: Just okay. It’s okay. That’s okay. Listen, thanks so much for coming on the show as my guest, I really appreciate it. You know, as you know, the name of the podcast is whispers and bricks and the whispers of those voices telling us what the right thing to do is, and they represent the good in life. And the bricks unfortunately, represent the bad things that we go through in life. And let’s be real, nobody, nobody avoids every single brick, it just doesn’t happen. Life is not perfect for anybody. And what I found out is, the more perfect a life seems by somebody, the actually the worst, the worse it really is. Now, I asked you to be on the show, because after talking about your story, I knew that there were people in my audience who were going through the same things that you had gone through, they had been hit with brick after brick, much like what you had gone through. And they needed to hear and to know that they could get through the trials and tribulations, the same way that you did, they needed to know that there were whispers out there that could save them. So my first question is very simple. How did you come up with the name for your daughter of Aviva? That is an Israeli name. And I understand that neither you nor your wife are Jewish.

Hans: Yes, thank you so much. All right. And first of all, I really appreciate coming on this show and really telling my story so Aviva my daughter is it’s first of all a wonderful name. You’re correct Well, neither of us are Jewish. However, we fell in love with this name after reading a book by James missioner one of my favorite books in the world it is called the source and as I understand you really love the book as well and and there’s a character in that you know basis fictitional well country at that is a is a fiction book but as a historical fiction based in Israel and her name is Aviva. Spelled Avi VA. And, and for me, you know, the name The name means springtime are kind of almost renewal of life. For myself, I’ve been through a lot of trials and tribulations as well. And so this was kind of a name that really resonated with you know, kind of For the blessings in life, the whispers as we, as you say, and if you actually write her name out in capital letters, Avi VA, it actually looks like mountains and valleys, peaks and troughs. And that really encapsulates what life is about. And obviously, when we named her we did not foresee the future for her but but it really is, you know, how we, as humans actually respond to challenges respond to tragedy, respond to those tough times in life, where we’re down in the, in the trenches in the tross. And really trying to figure out how we can extol those, there’s, there’s good times in life as well, and really holding both at the same time, I think you’re exactly right, there is no perfect life. And the more that we strive to be perfect, or this idea of perfection, I think the farther away we actually get from it. And so embracing the both the good and the bad, at the same time, that pain, the grief, and the happy moments, at the same time, has been one of those aspects of grieving of this bereaved journey that I’m on that that have really had to learn is the skill that you kind of have to have to learn as a as a as a breed parents. So that is really, you know, where we get her name, and it is a drum is spelled and same forwards and backwards. And I just love it.


Ari: Right. So for for all those my audience who don’t know, the source is a book that I read as well. It is, I think, 1300 pages, okay. And it is, it is a great read. Alright, but it is long, I will tell you, but definitely worth the read if you can get it. Now, Hans in your life, you’ve had, obviously a major brick thrown at you, as we’ve just learned from your bio question. How many kids did you have at the time? How old were they? How old? Were you and your wife? And can you just take us back to you know, and tell us how you managed to get through it all?

Hans: Yeah, so first of all, I would say, you know, being a father is my most important job. I know a lot of fathers say that. But I’ve really tried to embrace that and try to make, you know, being being there for my kids. You know, being patient with them leading with love. And being very involved as a parent, really, my first and foremost job, you know, even throughout having different companies and working in etc. But Aviva was born in January 2020. She lived for 10 months and 13 days until November of 2020. She was our third child. So at that time of that she died. Just over a year ago, my oldest son was almost four. My middle daughter was two and a half. And and my my fourth child actually hadn’t been born yet. So so little Liliana is our fourth child and she actually came into our lives just about five weeks ago. So now congratulations. Yeah, thank you so much. I’m a new parent again. Fourth time around but Liliana. Although he never got to know her sister, she actually carries a part of her sister with her because of him. His middle name was Lilia, and Liliana kind of comes from that. And so she we wanted to honor her sister that way, but we definitely want to tell her all the stories about her older sister.

Ari: Wow. Wow. So you had see you had three kids at the time for two and a half and 10 months? Is that correct? And how old? Were you and your wife? If I may ask?



Hans: We’re both in our mid 30s.


Ari: Mid 30s. Okay. And, like, what was the effect that it had on on your wife for one and on your other children? And you as well, I mean, what was I mean?

Hans:  It had to be very, very difficult. I know parents that have lost children from infants to you know, adolescence to teenagers, to young adults to older adults. All right. It’s never easy it’s not it’s not as they say in Hebrew. Dara Hi, in the way of the world, the way of the world is a parent a child buries a parent, not the other way around. The parent does not bury a child that is not that that is not the way life works. Unfortunately, it happens but that’s not the way life is supposed to work. So tell us a little bit about you know what what was going through your mind your heart and you know how your other while your other kids were? Were probably too young to understand what was going on. Although your four and a half year old, your four year old may have understood some of it. But and what was it Get what was the what was the effect that it had on your wife? as well?

Ari: Yeah, so so like lots of things that impact there, but in terms of, you know, the grieving journey, and in terms of the event itself, it’s certainly been the very most difficult one that we’ve ever had to travel through and journey through the worst tragedy that can befall almost any parent, I myself, have have had a very near death experience. In my in my 20s. However, you know, this compared to that there’s, there’s absolutely no comparison and we talk about grief. You know, you shouldn’t necessarily ever compare grief, because the hardest grief I that that you know, is is your own. And that’s that’s the case with everyone. So in terms of the the journey, it’s just been something that I’ve really learned to embrace, and my wife has as well. You know, before this, we really didn’t know much about grief, we really probably couldn’t even spell grief, it is that distant from us. We’ve been very blessed in our lives, and definitely a lot of positives, and to be thankful for. However, you know, when an unforeseen tragedy, unexpected tragedy actually strikes, which happens to a large percentage of us, you’re never expecting that and really, kind of having to live through that is really having to learn what it actually is to live again, what we both kind of told ourselves is we first of all you want to survive, you want to get through it, the very first days and weeks, it just feels like you just can’t get out of bed, you can’t even go to the grocery store. For us, we had even take care of our children, which on one hand was was a blessing that we could have them, I remember coming home from the hospital, given both of them a very big hug and being thankful that we had them. Because I know a lot of parents that are in our situation don’t. And I also wanted to say one of the things you said about parents losing losing children, when it also includes miscarriages in there, because a large number of us go through a lot of trauma with that. But in terms of, you know, having these other kids having to take care of them while grieving at the same time, you really have to take care of yourself, there’s a lot of self care involved. One of the things I did was was really taking off about five months of work, I just knew that I really couldn’t go back to, you know, the day to day, everyday thing that it did. And unfortunately as with COVID, the one of the positive aspects of it. With Aviva being born in January 2020, I got to actually work with her from home, almost every day of her life. And that was that was certainly a very big positive. And so having to go back to work in a situation where I was typically, you know, taking care of her or kind of, you know, she was in my lap, I was on Zoom calls, etc. That was difficult in and of itself. And so I knew I needed to create that space and really embrace the grieving journey. And so some of the things through that I, I’m the kind of guy that likes to go headfirst into everything and try to do everything 110% So, you know, started reading a lot of books about grief, started reading a lot of books about Memoirs of child loss. One of the really good books was Dr. Site, Rabbi Harold Kushner, who, who wrote when bad things happen to good people, excellent book, you know, talking about the spiritual side and reasons why these happens, which there really isn’t a reason not to give away the book. We, you know, all the little micro events in our lives can’t really be controlled by any kind of creator being but but in terms of other books, David Kessler, he’s a he’s a great psychologist. He himself he wrote part of the the five stages of grief with Elisabeth Kubler Ross. And after losing his own son, he ended up writing a book called finding meaning the sixth stage of grief, which is really about you know, after the acceptance stage versus the fifth stage, really, you know, that he thought there was there was something else and finding meaning try to try to find a higher purpose and, and find meaning in that loss that you do have has been something that I felt from the very beginning almost, you know, very first few weeks, which is actually when I wrote the book, baby Aviva ringtone diva. One of the reasons for that, as you said is really trying to carry her legacy prolong her legacy and, and also spread her Surely her wants her charisma

Hans: into the world into the hands of parents and kids that that never got to meet her. So but other other than reading books, you know, speaking with a lot of other people speaking with people that that have gone through it, I think being able to relate to others that have somewhat been in your shoes have been some of the best people to really talk to, because they can actually understand you. And you can also be fully vulnerable with them, get be able to tell them anything that’s on your mind, but the anger, the shock, the the sadness, the trauma, etc, just to be able to kind of cry with them. Human says social beings, we really need each other. And there’s, there’s no more important time than when we’re in the depths. In that grief. also saw a therapist, for the first time in my life, I’ve never seen therapist and was able to kind of learn a lot about self compassion, a lot, a lot about self care from her. And the importance of that, knowing that there’s a lot of wounds a lot, a lot of self blame. That’s almost all the all the time with child loss, there’s a lot of self blame that we kind of put on ourselves, I should have done this, I could have done this, I would have done this. There’s there’s unanswerable questions that kind of percolate through our heads are things that just prolong the suffering, which which we, one of the big differences between pain and suffering is that pain is something that you really feel this is really a part of you that sadness, suffering is kind of the every day daily pain that that we kind of, almost bring upon ourselves a lot of times, by making those decisions to ask this question and set to repeat events in our head. And there’s, there’s, there’s a lot of things that we can do to actually ease that suffering. And so self compassion and self care, throughout grieving has been very important to me. But also, you know, caring for my wife and being there for my wife. One of the things about child loss I’ve learned, I’m sorry, I’m talking a lot, but one of the things I’ve learned is really, a lot of times, you know, it ends in divorce with, with, with, with spouses, and what I’ve learned is that a lot of times, it’s not necessarily because of the events, that tragedy of the child, child’s death itself. But actually, the different ways that there’s, this parents actually grieve that child, you know, a lot of times one wants to move past it and not talk about it. Other one is really, you know, stuck in stuck in the mud stuck in the mud of grief. And, and, and it’s really important to be very supportive. And we’ve learned that from books, I mean, just just from from talking to a lot of other people, but we didn’t necessarily want that to happen either. So I’m glad to say that our marriage right now is stronger than it’s ever been. And it’s really, it’s been a lot of work, it’s been a lot of work to, to really make sure that, you know, we’re there for each other. So, sorry, I’m packed a lot about that. And,


Ari: no, that’s great. That’s really, really great. It really is, you know, there’s a lot of good things that you talked about. And you know, the good thing about the way I do a podcast is you can go listen to it, because you know, it’s it’s a videotape beforehand. So you can go you listen to it over and over again, to make sure that you’ve got everything that’s in there. So please, you know, I’m very happy that you, you know that you elaborate as much as you did, but I’m going to take a step to the side, I’ll call it to the side now that step back with a step to the side. And because you just mentioned something that I did not know something about you yourself having almost died. What was that all about?

Hans: Yeah, so so that was experienced in my 20s when I was in college, and as many of us in college go through, had had been drinking too much. You know, I would admit that ended up falling down a flight of stairs. kind of became became unconscious, you know, definitely not the finest point in my life, but was taken to the hospital taken to the ER, and, and they’re, you know, they kind of diagnosed me with alcohol poisoning. released me the very next day. However I was. The very next day I was I was going through a lot of vomiting going in and out of consciousness, not necessarily, you know with it, it’s not wasn’t your normal hangover. And that was a Sunday and then ended up going to classes on a Monday of college classes and was able to kind of pay attention, but then fall asleep and I was writing but wasn’t, you know, wasn’t necessarily like making things out on a piece of paper. And something was definitely continuing to kind of hamper my cognitive abilities essentially. That day, went home, took a nap, came back. And my roommate had been out of town and he for the weekend, and he got back he said, you know, Hans, you are, you’re acting very, very strange. You should go to the hospital, you go go the doctors, I’m like, No, it’s just this hanger, I can’t really get get over it. He ends up going. He was on the soccer team. And when it goes to soccer practice comes back a couple hours later, and he sees me completely slumped in my chair and not and staring off actually in space. So I had my eyes wide open. And so he immediately put me on his back, put me in the fireman’s hold and, and took me to the ER, which happened to be three blocks down the street carried me down the street. Wow. And they they ran a CT scan on my head and they realized that I had a what’s called an epidural hematoma, which is basically a blood clot that was on the outside of my brain sac that was threatening to rupture my brain. So if basically a blood gets gets in the rain if that if that ruptures? It’s immediate death.


Ari: Yes. Game over. Yeah, for sure.


Hans: And, and the head, neurosurgeon was on call that night, fortunately. And he, you know, mediate surgery. He, and later, you know, a few days later, when he was talking to me, he said, Hans, you’re incredibly, incredibly lucky to be alive. You had maybe 15 minutes, and that epidural hematoma would have ruptured, and that that would have been it. It was about the size of a hamburger, he said, Oh, my God, I’m on the side of my head. And so he’s like, you’re extremely lucky. You know, most people that have these do not come back, I think about 90% Don’t make it. And he said, You, you definitely owe a lot to your friend, my friend Garrett, and I’ll never I’ll never forget it, you know, will net will always be in debt to him.


Ari: Right, let me ask you this was was that hematoma was that the byproduct of the drinking binge, or was just,

Hans: it was from from hitting my head on the on the staircase. So there’s a metal staircase. Lot of other times when people have epidural hematomas is due to sometimes baseball hitting, you know, hitting someone’s head, or, you know, a pretty serious accident, maybe skiing and you hit a tree with your head, stuff like that, that you know, that it happens on Inside there’s internal swelling that that that occurs, but you know, it’s a silent killer is a kind of just dies and grows over time.

Ari: Wow. That’s, that’s amazing. I did not know that. That is absolutely amazing. So let’s get back to some really good stuff right now. So what what are you doing right now?


Hans: In short, I’m really, really trying to honor my daughter’s legacy. And I’m really trying to, you know, find ways both creative and non creative, I guess, ways to actually honor her her life to spread her message and spread her joy. And one of those ways is actually through children’s books. And so when I was, you know, thinking about it was this is about a week after she died. We hadn’t heard her celebration life, we had a funeral. And when you go to these events, you tend to hear these eulogies, oftentimes by family members or friends. And a lot of times, you know, they’re talking about how this person changed their life or how, you know, this person had had this funny story about him or her, and ways that this person has created an impact. And oftentimes, that’s usually a message that’s embedded in this eulogies. And when we’re sitting there doing a Vivas eulogy at her Celebration of Life You know, it’s just struck me that the majority of people that were there, and this is during the hydrocodone minute. So not many people came. But even even still, those watching on Zoom, they didn’t get to know who she was, they didn’t really get to know who Aviva is. And as a father, as her father, I was very fortunate that I did. And she affected me in a very profound way she just had, I can kind of brag about her because because she, she just had this really, you know, amazing, just aura about her, this, this, this kind of just loving, or that was very different from our other kids. And so So what I wanted wanted to do is kind of pass that on and almost become a vessel or channel for her to kind of work through me and, and really get her message out into the world. And so a lot of the underlying themes of the book baby Aviva ringtone diva, are about staying true to yourself overcoming different challenges by finding inner strengths that you have. And so that was really talking about a lot of the ways that she went through six different hospitalizations in her life. And every single one of those, she really kind of embraced it with a lot of fortitude, a lot of graciousness, almost, she was just very happy even during a lot of those very, very tough times when she had wires and tubes sticking out of her and so. So, you know, it’s about having your inner strengths. And this little baby a ringtone actually has this inner strength. So it’s being able to sing and dance because she’s a diva and and she comes across her family is in peril, they don’t have any food, she has to go through this journey to search for these bananas, but then it comes across this ferocious tiger who’s this king of the jungle and, and he’s guarding the bananas. And she’s sitting there in the tree wondering what she can do. She She’s thinking and thinking, but then all of a sudden, it strikes her, she should just do what she does best. And she starts singing and dancing. And lo and behold, this ferocious beast, and this tiger starts dancing. And then eventually, they’re both dancing together, by the end of it, and, and then sharing bananas, and he gives her a bunch of bananas to bring back to her community. And so. So those are some underlying themes as well, you know, doing something good for others, as she kind of brings the bananas back to community but also not judging a book by its cover. And so she wasn’t afraid to go challenge this, this, this tiger and even though you know, he was very scary. So there’s a lot of, you know, a lot of things to unpack there. But it’s really, it’s really a way that I want to share her her light and her love with all the children that do get to read it and parents and teachers and everyone else. Wow.


Ari: That’s great. All right, before we go, let me ask you this. Is there any any words of wisdom, any advice for my audience for you know, just words of wisdom in general, whether they’re going through something or not? Something you’ve learned that you can share with us?

Hans: Yeah, one of the things I’ve realized is that society, just in general, it doesn’t embrace embrace grief that well, if you look at even bereavement leave, it was it was just like five days that, you know, most corporations kind of give you. But even when, when, when I’m talking about this grieving journey, it’s a very lonely journey. And it’s a very unique journey, and that you’re trying to you’re traveling it yourself. And there’s an analogy that someone told me the other day was, was really, that drink through grief is kind of like sitting in this deep, dark well, so like well of water. And you have a lot of people kind of coming coming by. Some people say, you know, oh, man, that sucks, you’re sitting on the well, is if there’s anything I can do, just let me know, it’s very common common thing you hear. But then there’s other people that come by and looked at your look to see that you’re down in that well, they’re like, Hold on one second, I know it really, it’s really tough. I’m going to go back and I’m going to get a rope, I’m going to get a ladder, and I’m going to come down there and I’m going to sit with you in that deep dark well of despair that you’re in. And I think that really fully encapsulates, you know, empathy and just being being empathetic and really understanding how to actually, you know, really help that that brief person. And then that person says, you know, if, if and when you’re ready, we can both try to journey out of this. Well, and I think that’s, you know, one overarching message I’d like to share to your listeners is really, you know, if you know someone that is going through a grieving journey, it’s very difficult to know what to say or do As people are very different, but one universal thing, by talking to a lot of people is really, an experience of myself is really just showing up. Just just show up for that person, whether that’s sending them a text message, you know, once a month, or once every couple months, saying how you doing, or I’m thinking about, you know, your loved one, or, you know, I’m coming over to give you a hug, or whatever else it is, or would you like to have a conversation. Many times, they won’t respond many times, maybe they it doesn’t. It doesn’t affect them, but in terms of in terms of just knowing that you’re thinking of them is really important as as a brief person, because it’s hard for us to kind of reach out for help. If someone says, you know, let let me know what I can do, you know, that we’re not necessarily going to, to say, say anything, but I think we as a society can really do a lot better job of of really supporting those going through grief and really recognizing that it is almost this invisible wound that we’re living through. And so you know, this, this really, really tough handicap that we all have to kind of carry on our shoulders. So that is that is really the, the message I’ll share to all of your listeners is, you know, we’ve been through COVID pandemic, I know that most listeners know someone that’s going through a lot of pain, and just, you know, let them know that you’re there. Because it could just be, you know, listen to them or give them a hug. You never know how big that is important that is to, to that great, great person. And then finally, for all, for all parents out there, I know this is a very tough topic to talk about child loss, but in terms of my message to you just embrace every single moment that you have with your child and really cherish those precious days and time that you have with your loved ones. Because you certainly never know when your last time,


Ari: right, I hear certainly definitely words of wisdom. Again, I myself, basically adhere to that. That position of, you know, saying, you know, before you leave the house in the morning, you know, tell your kids that you love them, because it might be the last time that you actually see them, which is something that I personally I did not, it didn’t happen to me because I got out of 911 but 658 of my friends and co workers, they did leave in the morning and they never came back. And you know, so I tell people the same thing you know, let your wife and spat let your spouse, your wife, your kids, let them know that you love them every single day because it might be the last time God forbid that you have that opportunity. If people want to get ahold of you, Hans, what’s the best way of doing that? Email? Website? What’s the best way to find you?


Hans: Yeah, absolutely. And so it’s a Bemis daddy@gmail.com That is my email. So Avi, VA, s di d dy. That’s also my Twitter handle. So at Aviva steady, as well, as well as Instagram. And my website is is wo dot Hans kolbert.com. And that that is the best way you can get get in touch with me. But yeah, as I would say, you know, all of your listeners probably came on the show to listen to this show. Trying to get some something out of it. I think the most important thing is that we can actually do our, almost the simplest things that we can do, you know, tell, tell your loved ones that you love them and be there for someone that’s going through a tough time.

Ari: Right, Hans, thanks so much for sharing your story with my audience. I’m sure you’ve touched the hearts of many of my peers and many of the people in my audience Good luck going forward. Keep up the good work. It’s so important the work that you’re doing, and it’s certainly going to benefit mankind in general. That’s my belief. Thanks again. You’ve been listening to whispers and bricks and I’m your host Iris Shaman. Remember if you feel like you’re stuck in the mud, like you’re spinning your wheels, wasting time and your career your business or your life. If you know you’re not enjoying all the success satisfaction significance that you desire, then it’s time for you to book a call with me at call with ari.com Check out my whispers and bricks Coaching Academy. Until next time, listen to the whispers avoid the bricks and never ever give up on your dreams. Bye for now.