96.  Joe Templin Learning To Adapt

96. Joe Templin Learning To Adapt


Joe Templin Learning To Adapt


Joe Templin has had a very successful and varied career but one of the bricks he learned the most from was having a child with special needs. His son has Autism and both his sons have ADHD. Helping his sons navigate the world has taught him lessons that not only help his children deal with change but help his business clients deal with the unknown. He reminds us to not only embrace change but plan ahead for it. His story reminds us that no matter the bricks we face we can find ways to adapt and thrive. 

Show notes:


Episode Transcription

Intro Plays


Ari:  Welcome to whispers and bricks. My name is Ari Schonbrun and I’m your hosts. My guest today is Joe Templin. He calls himself a reformed physicist, financial planner, startup founder and autodidactic polymath that best describes is best described as a Swiss army knife. Say that three times fast. Joe Tillman has invested the past two and a half plus decades to helping others reach their financial potential as a planner, trainer, mentor and creator. Joe has served as a member of naifa The National Association of insurance and financial advisors on the local, state and national level, and including three terms on the naifa National Young advisors team subcommittee, and was honored as one of the 2011 for under 40 is a graduate of the leadership and Life Institute of naifa as well as Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, and is an alum of Johns Hopkins University. George is CFP and has written hundreds of review questions for the exam. He has been a business columnist for the Albany Times unions, advisor today magazine, and insurance news net Joe earned is a certified executive counselor designation as well as his certified master executive caseloads. 2021. Joe is currently a vice president of the Autism Society of the greater capital region. He is also the managing director of the unique minds Consulting Group, and is the author of everyday excellence, the Kindle number one new release in professional development. Joe is the co founder and president of the intro machine Inc, an organization dedicated to teaching professionals in a variety of fields, how to build an introduction based business. He has spoken all across the US and Canada on ethical business development in his free time. I don’t know where he gets that from. Joe enjoys running ultra marathons, Crazy guy. And as a fourth Dawn from the Koch kick won in Seoul Korea. I don’t know what that is. And former international champion. He lives in gainsford New York with his hooligan boys, Danny, Liam and Colin. They’re huge Yankee fans. Please help me welcome Joe temple template.

Joe: You’re gonna read all that I just like make up something. Make it sound like I’ve done something.

Ari: Yeah, well, you know what? I wasn’t going to read all that. But I need to fill fill some airspace. You


Joe: know what I mean? Okay. Air to try and be slightly amusing.

Ari: Yeah, I wouldn’t worry about it. How are you? Okay, how are you, Joe? I’m doing well. How you doing my friend. I’m getting better. Always better, always gets better.


Joe: You know what, that’s American optimism right there. Love it. Here

Ari: you go. There you go. Okay. Now, as you know, the name of this podcast is whispers of bricks, whispers of those voices telling us what the right thing to do is and they represent the good in life. The bricks represent the bad things we go through in life. And let’s be real, everybody has bricks thrown at them at some point in time or another in their lifetime. Some more bricks, some less bricks, some bigger, some smaller. Now there’s always you


Joe: should take those bricks and build a castle out of them. Like, you know, defend it and get rid of the bad guys.

Ari: They go. I don’t know why I think of that. There were several reasons why ESRI my guests on the show. After our initial conversation. I knew there were people in my audience who go through some of the same things that you were going through. They had been here with brick after brick, much like what you had gone through. And they needed to hear it to know that they could get through the trials and tribulations, the same way that you did. They needed to know that there are whispers out there that could save them. Now in your life, you’ve had many bricks thrown at you. But let’s start with a little background info to start with. To start with. Your mom was in nun. Your dad was a military man. Your they had six kids. Six of us

Joe: that survived. Yeah. Tell us about that. So my mom was a farm kid. She was the youngest of seven growing up in upstate New York. And my dad went to RPI, which is part of the reason I ended up there. He started in 1958 because of Sputnik when they decided the US government decided to start putting a lot more investment into technology to beat the Russians. So my dad went on ROTC scholarship to RPI graduated, got commissioned. As a butter bar and the US Army infantry, and then three months later was the bad pigs incident. Oh, okay. Then we started to ramp up with this little thing called Vietnam. I remember that well, yeah. So that’s, you know, my dad, mom and dad met on a blind date arranged by my mom’s older sister who’s my godmother, to and her boyfriend, who was my dad’s fraternity Big Brother. They went on a blind date. They did a whole bunch of times that my mom decided, screw this. I’m going into the convent.

Ari: Oh, so. So she was she she was dating first. And then she became a nun. I thought she was a nun. And then

Joe: out of the convent started dating my dad again,


Ari: how long? How long was she in the continent?

Joe: I don’t know, this is before I was born. So obviously, now that most of my aunts and uncles have passed on, I can’t get the right story anywhere. Okay. But then, like, they got engaged, she gives the ring back because back into the convent, she was in the comment, like two or three times I think it was three is what system. And eventually, Sister Margaret’s like, you’re gonna marry John. And she ended up marrying my dad. And there’s six of us. And, you know, they lived happily ever after until my mom eventually developed cancer from smoking two packs a day probably from dealing with six kids, and passing on about eight years ago.

Ari: And how old was she when she passed on? 

Joe: She was 73. 

Ari: 73 All right. Well, I think let’s let’s go back to I think this was the first major break that you got hit with was the age of 10. When you were, as you said, quote, unquote, legally dead from asthma. Can you tell us


Joe: about this? Well, you know, there were lots of bricks leading up to that with the various asthma attacks. Because back in the early 1970s, I mean, they didn’t have the puffers that they have now, and all that. So if you were having an asthma attack, you’d need like a shot of adrenaline, or, you know, they would do one of those things where they were basically blowing adrenaline and steroids directly into your lungs, and then they’d stick in an oxygen tent for a week and all that. So I was having a real bad asthma attack. I was 10 years old, we go see Doc Murray, I’m laying there on the examination table, and all sudden, I no longer had a tight chest and I’m floating on up and there’s the big light and everything I’m looking down, Doc Marie becomes like an octopus with all these arms. And he’s like, going like this, and my mom’s freaking out. And I heard you know, the big deep voice. It’s not yet time then as back down my body and just, you know, having trouble breathing and off to the hospital. Wow.

Ari: Wow. So you saw the bright light?

Joe: Yeah, I saw the bright light. And that’s part of the reason why I’m like this today. No, not completely insane. That’s from other things. But because, you know, if you get a second chance like that, and this is one of the things that, you know, I’d love to hear from about your story a little bit on this. When you get that second chance at life. You don’t waste it. I mean, we get 86,400 seconds a day. Doesn’t matter. If you’re Bill Gates, or a kid in college, you get the same amount and you can’t like bank some for next week when you know you’re going to need them. So I as my friend say, burn the candle at both ends and in the middle. And so I accomplished more typically in one year than most people do in a decade. And that’s just the way it is because I’m nonstop.

Ari: Wow, wow. Well, I do know that you are an underachiever because you started college at the ripe old age of 13.

Joe: Right, because my parents said 12 was too young to start college. Ah,

Ari: okay, so you were an underachiever. 13 years old. You started college? What I mean, what was? How did that come about? Like, were you just bored in school? Did they? Did they

Joe: there was partially that? Yeah. And so like, my mom actually refused to tell me what my IQ scores ever were. But I found out that they were, you know, the first digit determine what I saw was a two. So I used to be wicked smart. But I told my mom was like eight years old that I want to learn everything that there was no and she’s like, Well, you better get started, you know. So, to this day, I have that attitude. And that’s part of the reason why I’m an autodidactic polymath is that I get fascinated by everything, whether it’s finance, physics, psychology, so I am a sponge when it comes to learning and a lot of things have come From that it made me a very good intelligence officer. It’s helped me as a writer makes me always, you know, everyone’s first choice at trivia night in the pub. So I’ve learned and just had this absolute desire to experience and learn things from even before I had the encounter, as we’ll call it. And so that’s carried forward in a lot of ways. So the Johns Hopkins University was introducing a special program in the 1980s, which we nicknamed genius camp. And I was one of the first people in upstate New York to be involved with it with my Irish twin, my older brother, Jay. And so at 13 years old, I was taking college classes.

Ari: So what was it like being Sheldon?

Joe: It’s funny saying that, because then later on, I went into applied physics. So everybody’s like, Oh, you know, the big bang theory that’s like you template on it. And I have never actually seen an entire episode of that. And well, even though the it’s funny, because it’s true. GIF is my favorite gift to use on other people.

Ari: Yeah. So what was just, you know, just to veer off a little bit, what was it? Like? I mean, you’re 13 years old, you’re going to college? I mean, with guys that are 1819 20. How is how did you I’d

Joe: always been exposed to people who are older because my mom was the youngest. And she had us when she was relatively older. So my cousins were all five 815 years older than me. So I grew up with them as my models, not always necessarily good models. But I mean, my mom said that when I was like two years old, and she was teaching my cousin and helping her with her high school biology homework, I was dancing around and singing about deoxy ribonucleic acid, and my cousin wanted to strangle me. And then later on that cousin was actually head of the science department at high school I went to, so that sort of laid the groundwork. Like I designed an atomic bomb was 11 years old, maybe I was 12. And I asked my mom, if she could give me any radioactive material because she was former radiation biologist. She wanted to know why I explained. So of course, she said, No. I mean, I wanted to get a chemistry set. She’s like, Okay, you need to take high school chemistry first. So I took high school chemistry, did really well. I’m like, where’s my chemistry said, she’s like, You need to take AP Chem. Before I do that. I’m like, Alright, so I took AP Chemistry, I got five on the exam. And like, where’s my chemistry set? She’s like, You’re too dangerous now. So of course, I ended up going into physics, and working for the government designing weapons. So this is what happens if you don’t give your kid a chemistry set. You’re going over atomic bombs and stuff like that. So according to the parents, it’s like that scene from NCIS. Where again, is, you know, back seeing his dad and his dad, when when take the rifle away was a kid. So he ended up becoming a navy sniper. It’s just like that give you the chemistry set. All right, we’ll get a copy of the NRCS cookbook, and then go and be an Intel officer. All right.

Ari: Let’s fast forward. Now you have three children, two of whom are actually special needs. Yes. Tell us, you know that that must have been very interesting, you know, trying to raise three kids, two of whom are special needs. You must have acquired some kind of, you know, skills that most parents would not have acquired. That’s what it was like, tell us what you did tell us, you know, how you how you how you dealt with it?

Joe: Well, before my mom died, and this is before my youngest, are either more diagnosed as autistic. I used to call her up and I’d be like, Mom, I’m so sorry. And she’s like, which one? And would they do this time? Because, you know, she used to say that she would curse me with what just like myself, and I got three of them. So there is that going on? So my youngest was diagnosed first. And he was diagnosed with autism and ADHD simultaneously. And he had horrible eyesight, so he could like barely see and he had sensory issues. So in kindergarten, first grade, it was like having a drunk toddler in Vegas with the overstimulation. And like, every time I turned around, I was getting a call from the school app to come pick him up. He ran from a bus, you know, he got thrown out for a day for throwing rocks at kid. He got thrown out three summer programs in a one week and a half week period, because of just having this uncontrolled bull. Not just energy, but in ability to relate to other individuals. And so we got him diagnosed and then that was actually a great thing. Because once we know what’s wrong, you’re not wrong, but why he’s different because he’s not Ron, he’s just difficult. He’s, he says he says he’s immune, he has super power. So I go, and he does have some, you know, incredible intellectual abilities. So, but then we were able to start dealing with, we were starting to, we’re able to get the school social worker, we’re starting to learn strategies, I reached out to autistic communities, I talked with one of my friends, who’s a highly successful physicist and executive, and he’s got us on it. And so he was, in many ways my mentor through there. So when I was having bad days, I could call him. And when he was having bad days, Jason would call me. And we will be able to support each other on this. So that’s one of the things in the special needs community, whether it’s a neurological special needs like mine, or I’ve got a friend whose son had a rare foreign pediatric cancer, or who’s got kids have diabetes, finding your tribe, your support group that you guys can swap stories, and ideas. And you know, shoulders is a major, major thing. So my Cub Scout pack, I’d say a quarter of my kids are special needs in some capacity. So some of the things that I’ve been, I’ve learned over time, I actually sit down with the parents, I’m like, Hey, you might want to try this. Here’s an idea that, you know, we’ve used as worked. And they’re like, Thank God for this because one, the kids, we accept all kids, it doesn’t matter how weird they are in Cub Scouts. And some of them are really weird that there’s no excuse. They’re just strange heads. But that’s awesome. There’s still, we still love them. But it gives the kids peers and kids who are a little bit older that they can model off of because this, like, with my kids, my youngest and my oldest are on the spectrum, my oldest can be highly disruptive, to say the least. And so my youngest models off of him. So having other kids a year or two ahead of him three years ahead of him, that he can see and have a different path that he can walk because of that is a very good thing. So any of your listeners who have children that are on the spectrum, or have these emotional support needs, I would recommend that they find organizations like that, or groups like that, where the kids can see better influences better behavior, if it’s whether it’s the older kids, or the leadership around it, so that they can have this image of this is the better way overall. So in terms of strategies, one of the strategies that I picked up from Jason that I’ve applied with my youngest son, and actually I apply in business all the time that I teach my clients is playing the white F game. Because with autistic kids, they very often have this checklist in their head of how things are gonna go they write their narrative, which is part of the reason why some of them don’t like to read fiction because the plot twists, we do throw a wrench in their works. And if something does not go the way that they have scripted in their head, that’s part of the time that they have big meltdowns and some of the issues. So what I did with my son is we learned to play the what if game. So we’re gonna go to your favorite restaurant on your birthday, buddy. What are we going to do? If they are close? What if they are closed? What’s the backup plan? And he helps develop that plan. So he’s buying in? So he has emotional invested interest in Okay, da, if the sunsets closed, we’re gonna go ahead and race. All right, good. Now what if we go to sunset? And you want to have nachos? You said your favorite food? Yes. Okay, what if they don’t have nachos? What are you going to do? I’m going to do this. And so it allows him to plan out what he can do in terms of alternative paths. If what he is foreseeing is not happening. And this reduces the stress and allows him to be comfortable. So if you’re going on like a plane trip, or if you’re planning a night out or planning something, taking a couple of minutes to sit there and play the what if game, on the most likely disruptions helps reduce that stress level and helps them cope. So with my clients, my business owners, I teach them to this Okay, what if this sale does not go through? What if the client says acts in response to your presentation, and it allows us to essentially roleplay alternatives beforehand so that these clients are better prepared, if something Then comes from left field. And the origin of this actually, in some ways goes all the way back to Sun Tzu’s The Art of War. The victorious general

conducts 1000s of calculations in his fortress era, he marches out to battle, if you played this game and figure out the alternatives and what could happen, and what your responses are, it allows you to think two or three steps ahead, sort of like a chess grandmaster. And this way, no matter what is occurring, in this situation, you are at least somewhat prepared for the outcome. And so you can control and get what you need.


Ari: It’s absolutely brilliant. I mean, it’s, I mean, ah, I gotta be honest with you, I mean, all that That’s brilliant. Something that I think everybody could, could learn from. Now, in, but when we had our time, just you and I, and we were talking, you mentioned something, you have another, you have another another way of dealing with situations, and that’s called the reset button. Yeah, tell us about the reset button.

Joe: So the reset button is actually something that we as big people can use, if our days spiraling out of control, we’ve all had that day where it’s the absolute horrible, no good day where it starts with you spilling coffee on yourself on the commute. Maybe you have a flat tire, though, the computer’s not working properly, you get the call for you know, disrupting things. And it’s just spiraling out of control. And we need to, if it’s like dominoes, going, you know, being knocked over, we need to put a hand there to stop the fall. We need to literally pause everything and be able to take a deep breath, and rewind and reset. So when my youngest is having a really bad morning, when he gets up, it happens sometimes he didn’t sleep well, maybe you know, his brothers were being jerks, which, if you have older brothers, you know that they are jerks, that’s part of their responsibility. So whatever it is, if he’s having a bad start to the day, before that can spiral out of control, and he takes it to school or whatever. I literally say, alright, buddy, we’re going to hit the reset button. And we go back to his room, he takes his glasses off, puts them on his nightstand, shoes off, crawls back into bed, I tuck him in real tight, because a lot of kids with sensory issues like almost being swaddled like babies, because it makes them comfortable. It helps them to calm down. So I swaddle him in real tight, tuck him in, turn the lights out, and I walk out. And I come back in. Two minutes later, three minutes later, I basically wake him up as if it’s a brand new day, we forgotten all the crap that happened in that 1015 minutes or half hour would that was up. And you know, being nasty, or whatever. So we just play it forward from that when I wake them up, you know, with sweet smile. Hey, man, come on, let’s get up. No, we’re running a little bit late today, but it’s gonna be a good day. And we just I just literally give them a chance to restart it with a fresh slate.

Ari: Wow, that’s brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. Let me ask you this. Was there ever a point in your life where you, you’d suck like solo. He said, You know what? I just I can’t do this anymore. It’s too hard. You know? I’m not giving up on my dreams. And if yes, how did you overcome?

Joe: Okay, I have to admit, I hit that point multiple times every single week, because my goals are so big. When you’re trying to change the world when you’re trying to, you know, break through records, be an Olympian, when you’re trying to do incredible things, the world beats you down, and people try and drag you down, and you’re trying to do things that haven’t been done before. There’s risk. So that means that you can fail and if you fail over and over again, it can beat you down, especially if you got somebody chirping in your ear, blah, blah, blah. So what you need to do is, as Frederick EJ said, if the man has a strong enough why he will overcome it anyhow. So there are days where I’m like, God, can I do this again? I don’t want his or like, you know, I had a big client cancel on five hours notice the other day, five hours supposed to give me 30 days notice five hours and say nope, not paying an entire month’s worth of you know, revenue gone. And then I had a couple other minor incidents that were negative who like immediately after, and it could have literally spun me out of control. What I do, alright, I went outside and went for a walk around the block I took a deep breath. And I looked at nature because one of the things in human society, we build things that are very linear. I mean, you can see my bookcases behind me. And the doorframe and the walls. It’s all straight lines and linear just like in a school, or an office or a prison. Nature does not do that. Nature is all curved. Okay, look at your tree, look at a river, look at rocks, Okay, hello, my tree. So go walk, we look at your tree, walk around, okay, because one, when you’re getting a little bit of physical activity, the blood flows, and it helps your brain clear out negative chemicals, and reset and it helps reset your attitude. But also the visual change of seeing different things walking around looking at the texture, maybe getting some wind on your face, feeling the sun, all that helps reset you in some ways. So I do that. And I remind myself, the why, why am I doing this? What is so important? I mean, like, as they say, in The Princess Bride, when miracle Max is trying to revive, Wesley, you know what you got to live for? Okay, remind yourself, what is your mission? Because if you are that involved in that engrossed in your mission, then yeah, you’re gonna have bad days, but you’re going to get yourself up, dust yourself off and keep going.

Ari: You know, when I was when I first started my career, I had a mentor. And he gave me this advice, which has stuck with me for the last 40 years or so. And he said to me, I always remember one thing, those who know how, will always, always, always work for those who know why. Exactly. Brilliant, just brilliant. And that has stuck with me, you know, and that’s how I’ve tried to model my life, you know, you got to know yet you have to know the why. The how we can always teach but the why. Exactly why

Joe; or as I teach people, there’s the skill set and the will set. Okay, and so, you know, your will set is informed by your why your why is your mission, your will set is the guts, the determination, and you will get up at Oh, dark, 32 Train to develop your skills, if the will is there. And the weapons from that, why as Muhammad Ali said, champions are not made in the ring. They’re made in the dark, before dawn. And that’s what then ultimately comes into manifestation while others can see. I mean, six year old Cassius Clay was champion of the world in his mind, right? It took him until he was 22 years old to actually win the title, youngest title holder ever at that point. But he had that belief that why and then did the work around it. I mean, Arnold Schwarzenegger asked them, How many sit ups do you do? Every day? And Muhammad Ali told Arnold Schwarzenegger, I don’t know I don’t start counting until it hurts. Because he was that mid to dry? Should sure because of the vision.

Ari: So So what are you doing now?


Joe: I’m sitting on my butt.

Ari: Oh, very smart. So you’re basically you’re a coach,

Joe: I coach. I don’t do much financial advising anymore. It’s more working with advisors agency. So I’m basically helping develop these people, because it’s a leverage play. I could go and I could help 3050 new clients a year on my own. Or I can go and work with, you know, a couple of dozen agencies and 30 or 40 individual reps, and they can each go help 30 to 50. And so instead of helping 50 families a year, I can reach 500 Plus families. I can. And that’s one of the reasons why I ended up writing the book is because I think that through the book and podcasts like this and talking with individuals, I can actually reach out and help impact 10 million people a year.

Ari: Yeah, so that was gonna be my next question. Tell us about the book that you wrote. What is it called?

Joe: It’s called everyday excellence. And it’s designed to be a multivitamin for life. Because every single day, we have all these different components of our life that we need to try and improve upon. Whether it’s our communication, whether it’s our occupation, physical health, mental health, help our nutrition Are our families. So every single day, we’re basically fighting entropy, the universe wants to make us worse over time, you know, because we get lazy, we’re human things happen. So, everyday excellence is designed to help people get better on multiple parameters on daily basis, so that at the end of a week, month year, we can be in a better position. Overall, I call it human Kaizen, Kaizen being the Japanese idea of continuous improvement that was applied to engineering and manufacturing, we can turn around and apply this to ourselves, and our families, our occupation, our relationships, and ultimately put ourselves in a much better position.

Ari: Now, if you had to point to one person who had the most effect on you in your life, who would that be and why?

Joe: I know they’re at different stages in our life, different people come into it that are important to us. So for about a decade, it was my taekwondo master Danny Grant, who my oldest kids named after, because he was teaching me, you know, the reinforcing the discipline, and the guts, and you know, going beyond anything that you knew, working on your skill set, he also taught me to be a great communicator, as an instructor. So for a while it was that for a long period, obviously, it was my mom, because she embedded in me, the love of learning, and the hard work, you know, growing up on the farm, if you don’t work, you don’t eat. So that translates to the work ethic that I maintain to this day. For the past 10 years, it’s been my dad being there to help guidance support male always. So there’s no one person that I can say over my entire life, except my mom, because she obviously brought me into this world. And as she’s always said, I can take you out make no one looks just like you. But I used to say, well, because I don’t look like my brothers and sisters, because I’m tall and they’re not. I’m like, Well, my real mommy’s a Space Princess. And someday she’s gonna come and get me. She’s like, I’ll help you pack. So that’s the relationship that I got flat spot in the back my head, Virgo like me all the time. But that was one of the things that I my mom taught me and I’ve taught my kids is she used to say sometimes I love you. But I don’t like you very much right now, when I was not making good choices. And, you know, somebody asked us her, which one of her kids was the favorite? And she’s like, Oh, I hate them all equally. Yeah. And so I tell my kids that and my youngest actually responded, yes. But you love us all differently. And I think that is, you know, this is my autistic kid incredible insight. Because you need to if you have multiple kids, they’re different people. If you have multiple people work in your office, they’re different individuals, absolutely. People in your life. You love them differently as they need to be loved. And if you can adopt that mentality, you can actually go pretty far.

Ari: Wow, I think those are, you know, tremendous words of advice, tremendous words of wisdom. Something that definitely my audience needed to hear. Now, if people want to get a hold of you, how would they do that? You have a website you have emailed yet social media, tell us tell us, how does one get in touch with Joe template.

Joe: So go to the website, which is every day dash excellence.com There’s a Contact Us button there. Also, I put up four or five microblogs per week. So little one, two minute quick edits that are out there to just help people out. You can follow me on Twitter or Facebook. Those are both at Ed E with Joe. So at Ed E for everyday excellence with Joe and those are the best ways to turn around find me or you can just go to the local Irish pub and might be sitting there.

96.  Joe Templin Learning To Adapt

95. TJ Bell Go For What You Want


TJ Bell Go For What You Want


TJ Bell has faced a lot of bricks in his life growing up in a single-parent household. He suffered from alcoholism and drug abuse as a teenager and young adult. He was involved in street gangs and served time in jail, but he turned his life around for himself and his family. He is now sober and has his podcast to help others follow their dreams. He reminds us to go after our dreams and keep trying. His story reminds us that it is never too late to change your life.

Show notes:


Episode Transcription


Intro Plays

Ari: Welcome to this Whispers and Bricks My name is Avi Shonbrun. I’m your host. Today I have with me, TJ Bell. TJ. TJ is a recovering alcoholic and drug addict who decided to finally turn his life around, not just for himself, but for his wife and four amazing children. He is now a top two or top rated podcast host in the entrepreneurship category, as well as a podcast coach, and is on a mission to help those that feel buried by self doubt and limiting beliefs have breakthroughs and win in life and in business. He shares his experience and lessons learned and building better habits, strengthening your mindset for success, as well as becoming the best version of yourself in all areas of life. It’s not claimed to have all the answers, but he’s determined to find them and share them with you. TJ bill is a man who was on a mission to prove that you can be successful in anything you want. Regardless of your upbringing, current situation, or lack of knowledge and or money. Please help me welcome TJ Bell. A TJ, how you doing?

TJ: I’m doing great, man. How are you?

Ari: I’m wonderful. Thank you. Thank you for agreeing to be on the show. Really appreciate it. Hey, thank you. So hey, my pleasure. All right. Let me let me just start off with with one easy question for you. What does TJ stand for?

TJ: Yeah, a lot of people ask that everyone thinks it’s like I’m a junior or something. No, it’s just not for Terrance Jordan. This is my name. I don’t know why. But you know, since I was born, that’s what everybody called me. I have no idea why, but it just stands for counts. Jordan.



Ari: Terence Jordan. Okay. Well by that. All right. Now, as you know, the name of this podcast is whispers and bricks, the whispers of those voices telling us what the right thing to do is, and they represent the good in life. The bricks represent the bad things we go through in life, God knows. We all get hit with bricks throughout our lives, some bigger, some smaller, some more, some less. But everybody has a story. Everybody goes through something. And that is why you’re here on this podcast. Because after I heard your story, you reach some really, really lows that most people would never get out of. You did. Now my audience needs to know that they will whispers out there that could save them as well. So I would like you to start by telling us your major brick stories, and how you survived. Now I know that you grew up in a single parent household, correct? Yes. All right. Where Where did you grow up?

TJ: I grew up in a small city called Prince Albert, Saskatchewan here in Canada. It’s one of those cities where it’s so small that I mean, it’s still considered a city. So it’s not, you know, like really small or anything, but it’s so small that where there’s no you know, for lack of a better term, there’s no good quote unquote, good area. You know what I mean? It’s kind of all rough. It’s, you know, it doesn’t matter where you live. I never really knew my dad growing up, you know, I mean, he left when I was a shoe, I don’t even know maybe one. He left in the middle of the night while we were sleeping, took all of my diapers, all my clothes, everything my mom woke up to nothing. And yeah, man. So it’s been a I mean, it’s been rough. But at the same time, there’s been a lot of blessings as well, man.

Ari: do you have siblings? 


TJ: I do. I have five brothers and six sisters. But I only grew up with two sisters and one brother.

Ari: Kid or elaborate?

TJ: While the two sisters and one brother are from my mom. So I grew up with them. The others are from my dad’s side. I never really knew them. You know, as much as I know, the ones I grew up with. But, you know, I still have to consider, I mean, add them in the story because they’re, you know, they’re my family too. Right.

Ari: So I hear you. I hear you. So you lived in a pretty tough neighborhood. Life was pretty tough. And you kind of dealt with it the way the only way that you knew how. And by the time you were 15 years old, you became an alcoholic. Tell us about that. What was going on?

TJ: Well, I mean, it all started actually when I was 12. I was actually visiting at a friend’s house and he lived in a household where his parents they worked a lot so they were they weren’t around much. His mom worked at a casino and his dad I believe worked in a mine or something. So They were always gone. So we were just hanging out one day. And then there was this girl that I was hung out to that, you know, had a big crush on back then. So that’s why I was always there. And she, she handed me a cup. And she’s like, Here drink this. And I was like, Well, what is it she’s like, is juice or pop or something like that. So I took a sip. And it just a taste it was, it turned out to be a wine cooler. But I just remember like, Damn, that’s, that’s really good. And like, the more I drank, the better I felt, you know what I mean? And I just started getting, you know, at the time, I didn’t know, but I was getting drunk, right. And I just remember, I just felt really good. I felt felt powerful. I felt like nobody could stop me from doing anything, you know, like the most confident man in the world. And I ended up passing out in his little sister’s bedroom. And, you know, she was waking me up splashing water on me, hey, my mom’s gonna be home, you gotta leave, you gotta leave. So then I went home, fell asleep. And my mom was waking up, she say, Hey, is dinner, you’re gonna come eat? And I was like, no, no, I’m feeling sick or whatever. But she knew what was up. She just didn’t say anything. Because, you know, she had a very unique way of dealing with stuff like that. And you know, later on how to talk with me about, you know, the dangers of alcohol, because I come from a long line of, you know, alcoholics and stuff like that. And yeah, fast. I never drank after that. But fast forward to 15 My mom started dating a guy that owned a bar, just down the street from us. So she was always there, you know, getting extremely intoxicated and stuff like that she will come home with like, parties and stuff like that. And, you know, me I was I was a bigger kid, right. And growing up with only a mother, she always taught me to protect, you know, my siblings, my household and the women of the family and stuff like that. So when she would bring these people over, I felt the need to, you know, protect our household and stuff, because I didn’t know who these people were. So eventually, it got to a point where either tell these people to leave, or you’re gonna have to just include me in it, because this is really annoying, you know what I mean? So eventually, I just started drinking with them. Oh, yeah. And yeah, and then it just became, like, you know, once in a while, you know, then it was every weekend. And then as I got older, it just became more and more, you know, I mean, it eventually it became every day for like, five days straight. And, and I take like, a two month break. Fast forward to 2020, though, it started becoming like an everyday thing, because, you know, couldn’t go anywhere, couldn’t do anything, pandemic and stuff. And it’s just that 2020 was when, you know, it was really, really bad. And it was like, really a problem. You know what I mean? It was always a problem, but it was never really an extreme problem until about 2020.

Ari: So let me ask you this. How did that we I assume you were in school at the time, you were still you know, a minor? Did that affect you in any way that affects your grades or school? Or, you know, did you go to school? Did you cut Did you know what was going on? Well, as

TJ: a teenager, I was going to school. You know, as much as I hated school, I knew, you know, it was important, especially as a teenager so I never let you know the alcohol you know, affect my my schooling and stuff. I just kind of affected it on my own. I guess you could say I just I never did good in school. I never enjoyed being there. The only I guess the only class I liked was English. But ya know, I was a high school dropout. ended up graduating high school, though, at the age of 22. All right. Yeah. It’s never too late.

Ari: No, it never is. Now, from our prior conversation, I also learned that by the time we were 18, we were involved with street gangs.



TJ: Yeah, man. And that goes back to you know, single parent household man, I never had my dad around. So I always felt the need to fit in somewhere and also being half Native American and half white, or Caucasian, whatever you want to call it. I never fit in with the native, the native the native people, Native Americans, because, you know, they knew that I was half Native American, but they’re like, Oh, you’re white boy, get out of here. So then I go hang out with the quote unquote, white boys. And they say, Oh, well, you’re a native kid, get the hell out of here. You know, I mean, so I didn’t really fit in. Yeah, so by the time I was 18, I found a group of people who were just as pissed off as I was, and, you know, just wanted to, you know, for lack of a better term, get back at society or whatever, you know what I mean, and just kind of lash out and just do whatever. So I ended up joining a street gang. And very quickly realized that it wasn’t for me, because one of my best friends ended up getting stabbed to death. And, yeah, and I got to a point where, you know, people were threatening to come to my house and, you know, kill me and stuff like that. So I had my mom kicked me out, because my sister had just had a baby. So I was homeless for a while. And that’s when I met my, my wife, who I’m still with and she took me out of the city and brought me to her hometown to get away from all of that and yeah, ended up Getting out of it eventually.

Ari: Wow. I mean, that’s that’s a story that is rarely heard. You know, most of the time you hear about a story about a guy who winds up in the street gangs, and they just never get out. I mean, it’s just it’s a terrible situation, the fact that you were able to overcome is absolutely amazing. But I guess you had help with? Who is the person who was now your wife? That, do you think you could have done it without her? Do you think you would have managed to get out without her? Do you think that you know, she is the person that you know, if it wasn’t for, you’d still be there today? Or dead?

TJ: Dead? And yeah, if it wasn’t for her, I’d definitely be dead man. Because like I said, it’s a very small city. So there’s really no way you can hide, you know what I mean? Because everybody knows everybody, you know what I mean? And none of my family at the time, you know, understandably wanted me around their household because they knew, like, Well, hey, this kid has a target on his back. We have kids here. We can’t have that. You know what I mean? So, everywhere I went, nobody would let me you know, into their household and stuff like that. So yeah, if I never would have been able to go to her hometown. I don’t think I’d be around these days.

Ari: Wow, wow. But that didn’t happen right away. Because is, if memory serves me correct, things went from bad to worse. When you got addicted to hard drugs, and you ultimately wound up in jail. You want to tell us about that?

TJ: Yeah, that’s actually not funny. But it’s, it’s a weird story. So after I moved back to my hometown, well, Prince Albert from, you know, my old lady’s hometown and all the gang stuff cool down. This was years later, I left when I was 18. And this was when I was just graduating high school, actually, just after I graduated high school at 22. We had moved back to my hometown because you know where she’s from. It’s a very, very small community. There’s not much for jobs and stuff there. So we went back to my hometown Prince Albert, and yeah, I was, I was just hanging out, we got out, we had got our first apartment together. And my friend came over and he’s like, Hey, man, I found this big bag in the middle of the road. And I was like, okay, so he opened it up. And, you know, we had thought that it was, you know, cocaine. So then, you know, him hit him right away. He’s like, Oh, we could sell it, man. I was like, No, I was like, just get that get rid of it. Like we don’t, you know, we don’t need that. It’s like, let’s just test it out. So then, you know, we’re gonna go test it out. But after testing it, I was awake for three days. And didn’t even realize it went, like went so it went by so quick. It turns out, we were doing, you know, crystal meth and stuff like that. We just didn’t realize it because we were young and dumb. And he took it to his mother in law, and his mother in law just immediately smacked him took it from him and said, What the hell are you doing? I hope you guys didn’t do any of this. And, you know, she looked took a good look at us and realize we were messed up and, you know, got extremely mad at us. And, yeah, and, and so I was like, and I knew the dangers of because I had some family members that have been on air before. So I was like, I’m never touching that again, man. And so one night, I was, I was having a drink by myself, you know, just kind of trying to wind down and stuff. And I caught myself craving something like really, really strongly. And I just, I never knew what it was, until I went to go see my friend, because at this point, I haven’t hung out with him and like, a couple of weeks, and he was smoking that stuff. And then as soon as I smelt it, you know, when I was in his house, I immediately knew that that’s what I was craving. So then we just started, you know, smoking it and stuff. And yeah, it’s kind of a weird way to get hooked on hard drugs. But um, yeah, I was hooked on that for about a year and a half. And then my second child was about to be born. And the night that I got arrested well, because at this point, you know, because I got picked up for like drug charges and stuff like that during this year and a year and a half, and kept missing court, you know, failing on my probation, stuff like that. So I was on the most wanted list in my hometown, and ended up getting arrested. I had an opportunity to run, but I knew, you know, I was like, hey, if I’m gonna get off of this stuff, you know, I think this is my opportunity. So I took it. I just let them take me. And yeah, so the night that I got arrested was the night that my daughter was actually born. I just I didn’t realize it until like, a couple of weeks later. And yeah, they were trying to give me two years, you know, because it was drug charges. It was like a federal crime or whatever. But I ended up ended up only getting four months. So I did three and a half for good behavior. And yeah, and just coming out of jail like that after just like it wasn’t a very long time, you know, but it was enough time for me. And then seeing my daughter and just seeing the look in her face of her not knowing who the hell I am. And this is my child. You know what I mean? That right, there was what really, you know, kept me off of the drugs for good.



Ari: I find it amazing that, you know, were there any The issues between you and your wife during this period of time. I mean, you know, she’s pregnant having a baby and you’re in jail, you wind up in jail. I mean, you know, what was her feeling? What was? I mean? Was she just, like, very supportive of you? Or was she ticked at you? Or what was? What was the dynamics there?

TJ: Yeah. I mean, while I was in jail, she was obviously, you know, pissed off at me, but, you know, supportive because she knew that if I had, you know, a good support system coming out, like a place to stay, you know, a roof over my head, stuff like that, that I would do a lot better than I would if she just said, Nah, Screw him and left me, you know, like, homeless and stuff. But um, you know, during the time when I was on the drugs, I mean, she was very angry, like, but really just wanted me to be home. I don’t know, I still I still asked her that to this day. Like, why did any woman in a right mind would have left immediately. But yeah,


Unknown Speaker  

I mean, that’s, without saying that that’s exactly what I was alluding to, you know, why did she Why did she stay?

TJ: I have no idea. Man, I still ask her to this day. And she doesn’t know all she says is because I love you. And you know, and it’s, I don’t know, she was like, my ultimate blessing through all of this. She’s been with me, you know, before the drugs after the drugs, journey, alcohol, you know, losing all my friends to death, and you know, drugs and alcohol and stuff like that. And she’s just been with me the whole way through, man. So I’m Wow.


Ari: Wow. So. So what did you do when you got out of jail?

TJ: Well, she was back home in her hometown, you know, with her family, so they could help her out and stuff because obviously, I wasn’t there. And I actually forgot to mention this when I was 11 years old, I started writing hip hop music and stuff like that as a form of like therapy and stuff. started recording at like, 15. But my mom blacked out drunk one night smashed my entire studio when I was 15. So I never recorded until I got out of jail. I met up with an old friend of mine who makes music. And he said, Well, hey, why don’t we just bring my studio over to your house, and we can, you know, get back into music give you something positive to do, you know, since I was just fresh off the drugs, fresh out of jail, stuff like that. So So I started making music again. And I met up with my friend crossed the page, who invited invited me and my friend Aaron into his music group, which is called Pro revolution. And he got us doing shows, you got us radio interviews. Yeah, he had us on TV at one point. And yeah, man, and just those group of guys there. You know, I think there was five of us that started it. And now there’s like 14 of us. Yeah, so we just started making music and doing all of that. But now, you know, my mission in life has kind of changed. And I feel like music because I want to help people, right. And for me, the type of music I made, it was difficult to help people from just for me anyways. So I still kind of do that, but not as much these days. And now, you know, the podcasting is where, where I can help people, you know,

Ari: so what are you doing now? Is podcasting? Yeah, I’m

TJ: doing podcasting. I have my own podcast called underground reach. And what I do there is I interview you know, successful, very successful entrepreneurs in various different industries, you know, to, for one, help people find what it is they’re passionate about in life. Because my entire life I my entire life, I felt lost, I didn’t know what to do. And now I found my thing, which is podcasting. So that’s my mission is to help other people find their thing, or at least hear these entrepreneurs stories and realize, Damn, that guy came from a bad place to now he’s a multimillionaire. So if he could do I could do it, you know, what I mean? It’s kind of smash those limiting beliefs and, and that self doubt and stuff and just kind of help them, you know, be successful and stuff like that. And whatever it is they want to do.

Ari: Right? Well, it’s kind of like your story. Also. I mean, you were getting hit with brick after brick, whether it was the alcohol, whether it was the drugs, whether it was chair, whatever it was. And then finally, you know, you get out of jail, and you go, like, you start listening to whispers and you’re going like, I’m not going to do this anymore. I don’t need you know, are you getting hit with these bricks? You know, let me listen to the whispers let me do the right thing. And that’s where it appears as if you’ve straightened yourself out. You got off the drugs, you got off the alcohol, and now you’re doing something very, very meaningful, helping others to get through. Let me ask you something. Did you were you ever at a point so low in your life that you were going to cash in your chips and go like, you know what, I can’t do this anymore. I can’t you know, I’m done. Yeah, man. And if you were, how did you? You know, how did you conquer that? How did you get out of that?

TJ: Yeah, I love that question, man. It’s a dark question, but I feel like it’s a question that people need to hear the answer to these days, especially with these difficult times. For me, it was back in 2020, man, like I said, that’s when my drinking hit an all time low or an all time high, I guess. All I was doing is playing video games. and getting drunk. And it was to the point where I’d get on the video game and start drinking, right? And then my old lady would wake up the next day and I’d still be drinking, I, you know, somehow get another bottle and I’d be drinking right until that night, you know what I mean? So and then in late 2020s, mid to late 2020, my best friend who, you know, I make music with and stuff ended up passing away from drinking. And he was really the only dude like if I ever, you know, needed somebody to talk to or like, if I’m just having a hard time he would be the one that I will call, you know what I mean? And I’ll actually have them on my my sweater here, but But yeah, he ended up passing away from alcohol. And then, like, literally a month later, my older brother ended up dying of a fentanyl overdose. Yeah, man. So then my drinking really just took a turn for the worst after that, like further I just kept digging myself deeper and deeper into that pit. And it for me, it was really life or death, man, like it was either like you said cash into chips or figured out a way to turn this around man and and Christmas, Christmas of 2021. Or no Christmas of 2020 story. And I’ll never forget this man, I was awake, you know, from the night before still drinking, trying to help my kids open their Christmas gifts, man. And I don’t know, the next day like, the day after Christmas after I sobered up and stuff. I just I was thinking about that trying to help my kids open at Christmas gifts, and I’m completely wasted. And just them seeing me like that. You know what I mean? And then like that being a memory, like, I remember, like, every Christmas, my dad was drunken, you know what I mean? And I just, that’s really what like, key, you know, I need to I need to change this map, because I don’t want my kids to remember me being that, you know that dad that was always drunk, you know what I mean? And then when I would think about those times where I wanted to just end it all, I would think about what people would say at my funeral. You know what I mean? I just started thinking of that, like planning the whole thing out. And it got to a point where I imagined my old lady at my funeral saying he was a good guy he tried. But he didn’t really do anything with his life. You know what I mean? He was drunk all the time. So like, that’s where the, that’s really where the switch happened. You know what I mean? I was like, alright, Screw this, I gotta, you know, I got to do something different here. So may 3 of last year, you know, I put the bottle down for good. And I never looked back. And people always ask, like, was it hard? For me? No, it was actually really easy to become sober. Because I just wanted it that bad. You know what I mean? Because yeah, man.



Ari: Wow. So I guess, well, we’ll get to that in a minute. But who is the one person in your life that you would point to that, that you would say had the most influence in your life? And why?

TJ: Man, that’s kind of a difficult one. Because, you know, use used to be my mother when I was young, because she was pretty much like my dad, you know what I mean? But, you know, her life is kind of different now. But um, I don’t know, I really don’t I don’t know how to answer them. And I look towards I just, like, tried to find mentors and stuff. Like my mentor who taught me how to podcast and stuff, I really look up to him because he comes from a similar background, you know, he’s done to drugs and alcohol. He’s he actually went to prison for like, seven years. And now he’s, you know, a very successful businessman. And so I just kind of looked at people like that, because in my immediate environment, there really is nobody, there is really is no positive influence that I’ve met personally, that has helped me on my journey other than, you know, the people that I’ve met online and stuff like that. So yeah, what about your wife? Well, yeah, definitely my wife. Yeah. Okay.

Ari: Let’s not forget her. Yeah. She’s the one who stopped by you.

TJ: Yeah, definitely, man. I can’t forget about her. Yeah, just her to like just her. I don’t know her perseverance. And you know, her work ethic and her level of patience, to me is truly inspiring. Just putting up with all my BS over all the years. We actually met when I was 15. were the same age. So we were both 15. And, you know, decided to get together when you’re 18. And, yeah, so definitely. Thank you for that. Thank you for reminding me for that.

Ari: All right, let me ask you before we go, do you have any words of wisdom words of advice for my audience, something they can take away with them?

TJ: Yeah, man. If there’s anything that you’re wanting to do in life, just do it. Just start I know, you’ve probably heard it a million times. And honestly, I was sick of hearing it until I did it. And my life changed almost instantly man. Or if you don’t know what you want to do with your life, just try everything. Whatever, even if People think it’s stupid. If people don’t believe in it, you know, just try try everything. That’s what I did to get, you know, to find my thing. I just tried everything relentlessly. And be patient. Trust the process, man. It sounds cliche, it sounds cliche, but trust me it, it really helps because I never believed that either. But I finally did it. And it completely changed my life, man.

Ari: So if people want to get a hold of you, they want to talk to you, they need help with whatever it is they’re doing now, or, you know, they just want a you know, they just want somebody a shoulder to lean on, whatever, what’s the best way for them to get in touch with you?

TJ: The best way man would just go to my website underground. reached.com you can contact me there, check out my show. Follow me on social media, wherever everything is on my website. It’s very easy to find. So yeah, go check it out there underground. reach.com.

Ari: And you have a you have an email there. Yeah,

TJ: I have a contact page that goes straight to my email and everything else. Great.

Ari: Okay. TJ, thanks so much for sharing your story with my audience. I’m sure you’ve touched the hearts of many of my audience. Good luck going forward. Keep up the good work. Keep doing what you’re doing. You know. There are a lot of people out there that are very proud of you. All right, me being one of them. All right, so just keep it up. Keep up the good work. You been listening to his present works. I’m your host Ira Schoenberger. Remember if you feel like you’re stuck in the mud, like you’re spinning your wheels, wasting time, your career, your business your life. If you know you’re not enjoying all the success, satisfaction and significance that you desire, then it’s time for you to book a call with me at cole with ari.com. Check out my whispers in bricks Coaching Academy and until next time, listen to the whispers avoid the bricks and never ever give up on your dreams. Bye for now.

96.  Joe Templin Learning To Adapt

94. Clarissa Burt You Are Only As Strong As You Are Fragile

 Clarissa Burt You Are Only As Strong As You Are Fragile


Clarisa Burt has had quite an impressive career in modeling, film, and television. She even won celebrity survivor in Italy. Life has not always been perfect for her. She faced bricks in her childhood and later on in her career. Early on in her life, she faced one of her most significant bricks as a child growing up in an abusive household with an alcoholic father. When she listened to the whispers and helped her mother, her sister and herself escape that house. She later would listen to the whispers of people telling her she should be a model to start her modeling career, which took off from there. She reminds us not to regret anything we go through in life because it helped to shape the person we are today. That we are only as strong as we are fragile. Life will knock you down, but always get back up and always strive for personal growth.

Show notes:


Clarissa Burt In The Limelight

Episode Transcription


Intro Plays



Welcome to whispers and bricks. My name is Ari Schonbrun I’m your host. Today I have as my guest Clarissa Burt’s Larissa at the age of 18 signed with a Willamina modeling agency in Manhattan. Soon after that she moved to Milan and he began appearing on hundreds of magazine covers such as Harper’s Bazaar, Vogue and cosmopolitan, known as one of the top 30 runway girls in the world in the 80s CLARISSA Burt, the most important designer catwalks in Milan, Rome, Paris, New York and Japan. Soon after, she would be called by global cosmetic houses such as Revlon, Dr. Helena Rubinstein, and was chosen as the face for Orlan cosmetics for 10 years. Lewis has performed in over 20 movies and television producer credits in 1999. Starring hundreds of television shows Clarissa quickly became a household name and Italy. Clarissa Burt media group founded in Italy began with productions that included the nationally broadcast three hour live broadcast of the Miss Universe pageant, the World Sports Awards, and behind the scenes with the Miss, all garnering her various coveted Media Awards internationally, leading authority on beauty, image and self esteem. Good morning, Italy called upon Clarissa to host the popular beauty segment, Clarissa suggests Lewis has been the beauty editor for such international publications as the LA fashion magazine, fashion faces and runway. You can find her articles also in the Huffington Post supermodels Unlimited, Bella petite. And discover Phoenix. Janine, just a few. Please help me welcome Clarissa Burt.



Clarissa: you read more about me than I know about. Wow, you really did your homework there. Wow.

Ari: Wow, welcome to the show. Thank you so much coming on. How are you?


Clarissa: I’m doing really well today. Thank you. I’m doing really well. Beautiful day here in sunny Phoenix. So we love the weather here. And yeah, we get to run around in shorts and T shirts most of the time. And from here on out, things are gonna start to get very, very warm.

Ari: Okay. Well, as you know, the name of this podcast is whispers and bricks, the whispers are those voices telling us what the good thing and the right thing to do is and they represent the good life. The bricks represent the bad things that we go through in life. And reality is we all get hit with a brick at some point in time or another in our lives, some bigger bricks, some smaller bricks, some more, some less. But we know that life is not a straight line, there are ups and downs, there are bumps in the road. Now, you had several major bricks thrown at you during your life. The first one, let’s start with the first one growing up in a violent home. Yeah, tell us about that.

Clarissa: Could have been there was there was you know, I would say that that was probably for me, at least coming out of that kind of environment was was you know, rather difficult. There was drinking in the household, there was violence in a sense that, you know, there was never, you know, a calm day, you never knew exactly what was going to be happening depending on how much alcohol was consumed. And so I you know, I speak about my father, certainly not my mother. But it was it was, you know, difficult place to be at times, it was very, you know, difficult at 16. They, you know, I have, you know, some stomach issues, if you will, and so, they wanted to do upper and lower GI eyes on me to see if I had ulcers or not, I mean, that’s kind of a heavy deal for a 16 year old. You know, I didn’t we didn’t opt to do that. But you know, they gave me instead stomach relaxers, which I never took because I just I’m not I don’t like taking any like to get a Tylenol, let alone you know, something stronger. So, you know, truly so I just, you know, I was storm there. And I realized that, you know, I was pretty much going to be on my own as far as, you know, following the rules until I could until I could get out of that house. And and sort of you learn how to navigate if you will, you know the storm and stay out of its way and try to calm things down. And so, yeah, that was rather you know, I think, if you will, I think that there, I really truly came out of the house with PTSD. And I say that because I had every morning of my life I woke up with my heart in my chest. And that means I mean, just a very heavy anxiety and so The heavy anxiety kind of subsided around 40 years old or so when I knew that, you know, danger Will Robinson wasn’t really you know, there anymore. And that I could actually take a deep breath and ease into life. But it was rather it was really rather difficult because you never knew what you were going to get there was quite a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde kind of archetype, if you will. And so, you know, sometimes it was all fun and games and parties and love. And then the next day, no tiny turned around, you know, it was the devil incarnate. So it was rather a difficult place to, to be. But you know, again, as we say already, and I’m sure it’s not the first time you’ve heard that, you know, we only are who we are today, you know, in lieu of what we learned along the way. And I like to say that I am the person that I am today I write the books that I write today, I treat people today, the way I treat them because of what I learned early on in life. Well, meaning to be the complete opposite.

Ari: Right, right. Now, I guess things came to a head when you turned 18, where you weren’t like, you know, we’ve had enough and you left that violent home together with your mom. two siblings, I think, is that correct?

Clarissa: Yeah. With one certainly the one sibling stay behind. Yes. Right.

Ari: And you and you got out. Tell us, you know, how did you do that? What was the story there? Yeah, I


Clarissa: just graduated high school. And I, you know, I walked into my mother, I was going to be leaving college and a couple of weeks. This is all back in New Jersey, by the way. And so I you know, I just said, Mom, look, you know, he’s come home drunk again. You know, he’s, he’s threatening, he’s violent. And, you know, he’s waiting for me to leave. So that, you know, there’s that we don’t, there’s no buffer between he and you. And so she said, Yes, I know. And I said, you know, I think we’ve had enough. So we waited for my father to fall asleep and got into a car and left that morning, early the next morning, which was a Sunday morning, I think it was the 14th of August of 1977. We were out of the driveway, we my mother put the car in neutral, and I pushed the car into out of the driveway, so that he wouldn’t hear us starting the car, and we left and never went back. It wasn’t easy for a couple of, you know, a couple of years. I mean, we just had to, we lived in different places. And in the beginning, we were at different hotels that we wouldn’t be found. And, you know, we were scared. We were on the run. But it all worked out in the end. And you know, Mom was working always had worked. So she bought herself up bought us a little place out down in Hillsborough in New Jersey. And from there, you know, that’s when I started to say I really, you know, I want to make sure everything’s okay here. So I’m gonna live here, but I started to go back and forth from New York City, which is where when the Willamina part came in,

Ari: right, so tell us that’s the next stage of your life. I guess life was getting a little bit better. You are 18 years old. And you got to Willamina in some way, shape or form. How did you do that?

Clarissa: Well, it’s funny because I started working as an as the administrative assistant to the executive vice president of Adolfo menswear down in the garment district on 23rd Street. And, you know, in those years, Nancy Reagan was being dressed by Adolfo a lot of those Chanel looking suits were Adolfo who was a very big designer back in the day. So Adolfo menswear, it was a big deal. Let me tell you, it was a really cool place to be and I loved it. Because, you know, here I am the executive vice president, but you cannot, you know, you could walk back into the, into the shop and see, you know, people actually cutting the garments, which was extraordinarily exciting for me back in the day. It’s a flight to cool process. It’s really fun to watch. So I started back and forth and people say, you know, you really should be a model. And I went, Oh, I could never, you know, I just didn’t have the confidence. I had no self esteem at all.



Ari: And so I could never stand understandably. Yeah, but


Clarissa: it was really kind of, you know, it was my dream already. I’m not gonna lie. It’s exactly what I wanted to do. You know, back in the day, and you’ll remember that you are on the internet was the Sears catalog. That’s what we got. We got it. We got it twice a year. And it was fall, winter and summer, you know, spring summer, and I couldn’t wait to get that catalog because I was able to open it up to the women’s section. And look at the models and how they were wearing makeup and how they were posing. And that was how that was kind of like my dream, if you will to be my other icons were like Rita, Rita Hayworth and have a gardener. These are the women I thought were absolutely the most beautiful creatures I had ever seen. So I love to watch their movies. And I love the Sears catalog. And you know, the dream was was this seed was there. Let’s put it that way. And so when people started to say, hey, you really should you really should become a model. I just Oh my gosh, I could just don’t think I could ever. Well, I could and I did and it went rather well. And so I modeled for, I guess the better part of six, seven years but I did a lot of work in that time. And it was really wonderful. It was just a great experience and it gave me the possibility to travel the world and you know, it gave me a possibility to learn a lot of things. The second stage there was then moving into you know, becoming an actress Did about 1820 movies, I had a blast doing that, but I really wanted to produce, I wanted to be on television, I wanted to do what we’re doing now. Which is, you know, in front of a microphone on on, I should have brought the pictures up here for you. But, you know, my first experience on stage was as Mary Poppins in the kindergarten play. When I heard the first applause, you know, they had me at hello. I mean, I was really hooked. And I loved it. I didn’t see a stage again until I was about 30. Outside of the outside of the catwalk. I didn’t really see a true stage until I bought it on Italian television when I was 30. And that’s where I



Ari: Yeah, so basically, so 18 year Willamina, you spent about six years there. And then you finally, literally leave home before you were going back and forth. But now you finally leave home at the age of 24. And you start your life is a model in Italy. Yes, I did. Wow. Yeah, it must have been so exciting.

Clarissa: It was it was scary. It was exciting. I started in Paris first. The story goes like this, I started in Paris first and I was homesick and I was jet lagged and I wasn’t ready for it. I had this great opportunity, airy, and I wasn’t ready for it. I’m going to be I’m gonna be straight up. I’m coming out of this house with my mom and my sister and I felt horrible leaving them you know, because I felt as though I as the older child. I was a protector in some way. And I just was so homesick it didn’t work. So I came back to New York. This is like 1981 Come back to New York. And what happens is I tempt secretary and they send me up to the 50th floor at Revlon which is right across the street from the gobbled today motel on Central Park South. Big hotel in the Central Park South and Fifth Avenue. Now what the hell, I can’t even remember what our nevermind. So it’s on the 50th floor and I’m at Revlon every day and I’m looking around on the walls they have all these supermodels and all of these makeup campaigns. And I wanted to jump off a bridge I just went Oh, you just messed it up. You were in Paris, you could have been these girls, you know you all you had to do was you know, put on your big girl britches and not be afraid and I really didn’t number on myself. So I go back. I’m still with Willie. So I go back to Willamina and an Italian agency is coming through. And I so I meet with a guy his name is Lorenzo pedrini And this is back in like 8283 1983 So two years go by and you know without my mind realized a dream. So Lorenza comes through and he takes a look at my book and my composite, he says, Do you want to come to Italy? Yeah. So the only money I had in the world was the money that was in the bank. And that was for one way round trip ticket. All I had round to show I’m living in the city now. It’s costly. I’m not making that much. But I put enough away for that one ticket. And I wound up in I got to Italy in October of 1983. And the rest is history. And I went back I was able to then say a couple of years. And about two years after that. I was one of those girls in the Revlon campaign hanging up in the Revlon offices.

Ari: Wow. Wow. Well, let me ask you this at any point in time in your, during your career, whether it was early on or later. There were ups and downs as as we both know. But did you ever reach a point so low where you said to yourself, you know what, I quit. I can’t do this anymore. It’s just I just don’t have the gun shadow. Whatever reason you weren’t, you weren’t able to do it. And then, at the end of the day, you were able to turn yourself around and get out of that. Tell me about that?


Clarissa: Oh, heck yeah. Well, first of all, there were you know, there were a couple of times, it was one time in my life that I just you know, you just kind of get you get tired of the fight. You get tired of you know, having to get up one more day, I’m tired of putting on the big girl britches, you get tired of things going sideways, you get tired of people in betrayal, you get tired of feeling sad you do you get I mean, sometimes life will you know, as it ebbs and flows, it will kick you in the behind. As we all know, we’ve all been there. But you know, I’m going to tell you this something you may not know is that I won survivor I did when the show survivor, and I was in Italy and it was called celebrity survivor and this goes back 10 years ago. And I we took they took us to Nicaragua was called again, you know, celebrity survivor. And I was already in my 50s at that point. And I you know, here I turned actually 53 on the island. So I’ll be 63 this month so the math works out. And so I I’m strongest I’m really strong, really strong. I’m not a wussy kind of woman at all but we only are as strong as we are fragile airy. And I think that that’s one of the if that’s the takeaway today that is That that is we are only as strong as we are fragile. And so no matter how strong you think you are, life’s gonna kick you in the teeth sometimes. So that’s why I wrote the book that I wrote, which is called the self esteem regime. And I talk about, you know, staying very strong in your stead, having the roots really strongly rooted, so that when the hurricane comes through, when the tornado goes by, when you get that really heavy storm, you might lose a leaf or two and possibly a branch, but your roots are never uprooted, you’re not carried away with the storm. And so that’s, I think, where a lot of the, the self, you know, the stuff, you tell yourself, the affirmations, the tools and resources that you use to be able to say, this isn’t going to last forever, this is just for the moment. This is this. And in all of this, I don’t know exactly what it is right now. But I know I’m supposed to be learning something. And this is a teaching moment. So hang in there, until you can get through this until that light of the you know, at the end of the tunnel, yeah, is is visible, keep moving toward it. And that’s when you’re going to understand why what’s happening to you now happened. And this is the these are the kinds of moments in life that you you draw from you, you look back on it, you can draw from as as experiences as again, teaching moments as those those life learning moments that you will be able to use for the rest of your life. You know, some things come into your life, people or things, people or experiences come into your life for a reason. They may come in a season, and some will come in a lifetime. You know. So, yeah, so a lot of the teachings a lot of the things I’ve been through, I don’t know that I changed them for the world. Because I’m able to write a book much like mine now that you know, that it’s giving me the opportunity to be able to help other people to be able to, you know, and I’m very proud to say my book is in action in Barnes and Noble, and that people are telling me that, you know, it’s actually changing their life, you know, there’s no greater moment. Good when somebody says to you caught you books really changing my life? Holy? schmoly. I mean, really, I hear? Yeah. And then, you know,

Ari: I remember the first time when I got off, when I got off the stage after speaking, where somebody came over to me says to me, you know, you changed my life. And that statement was so powerful. And I went, like, Do I really have the power to change somebody’s life, you know, and then I got really scared, because it’s like, that’s a huge responsibility. I don’t know, if I’m ready for that.

Clarissa: Well, that’s where the bricks come in. Because once the bricks are thrown at you, if you’re, if you’re, if you’re equipped enough to catch them, or maybe not let them fall and then go pick them up, you can start to stack those bricks with good cement one on top of the other to be able to build something extraordinary. You know, and I don’t mean to build a wall. That’s not what I mean. You’re able to build, you’re able to build a foundation upon which to, to, to grow a personal growth, for me is something that’s very important. I really want to be a better person, person tomorrow than I am today. You know, who I’m hanging out with some of the words I use the things I’ve learned, whatever that might be. I think that’s who we are both of us. You know. And I think when you say you got scared, it’s a responsibility, maybe there. Maybe there’s a little bit of impostor syndrome that goes and you go down, and there’s no posture here. I went through this stuff I whether I know what I’m talking about.

Ari: I hear, let me ask you this, who’s the one person that you would point to that you would say had the most influence in your life and why?

Clarissa: My grandmother, my grandmother was one of as you was the most loving, supportive, kind, gentle, never a curse word. In didn’t drink, didn’t smoke, always a lady. She was a class act. And she was a lady. She was the epitome of who I wanted to be. And there were times when my grandmother would eat she was she used to come home with all my magazine Tech was what we had back in the day work that go by the magazine. Yeah. And you had your tear sheets. There was no Internet, there were no cell phones, you couldn’t take a picture and send it home. So I would come home with my tear sheets from my grandmother and she started to create these scrapbooks for me, which I still have, by the way, I’ve got all of mice. Ah, it’s amazing what grandma did. And every time I would come home, I would surprise her. So again, I’d get on a plane come home from Paris, come home from Italy, wherever it was, get on a train in New York City, head down to Philly and then I’d take a second train out to where she lived in glenolden. And I’d ring the doorbell and she’d answer it. There I’d be she’d be thinking I was still in Paris, or in Milan and we both do a happy day we get to do a happy dance I do my If it was the cutest damn thing you’ve ever seen, I swear, I’m named after my grandmother. So I my mother. Yeah, I’m the fifth board. Actually, I’m the fifth in the firstborn girl generation. So mom is Clarissa grandmother, great grandmother and great, great grandmother. But yeah, it’s, it was always it was just the softest place to land. And she always had a teaching moment for me. In her end years, you know, I moved to Arizona when I left Europe, I came back here because I wanted to be she had moved. Actually, I actually flew out in the plane with her leaving Philly and coming to Phoenix where so that all the family could you know, be reunited hear uncles, aunts, cousins, everyone. And so she used to say to me, when are you going to come home and plop it? You’re like, what are you going to just stay here? For God’s sake? Why do you always have to be traveling on planes? Because that’s what I love to do. I love the communication. I love. I love being on the stages. I love being a rat. I just love traveling in general, when you got to come home and plop it well, of course that that meant she wanted to spend more time with me and I did as much as I possibly could. And I did a lot actually. But she would be the lady that I would absolutely say I try my very best to emulate but she’s a tough act to follow.

Ari: Let me ask you is where was she born? Was she born in America?

Clarissa: Actually, she asked she was she was born in Illinois, actually. Wow. Wow. Illinois 1915. And she, she then was somehow got to Philly, where she met my grandfather and my grandfather. My grandfather is one of 16 Irish Catholic children. My so yeah, my family tree all the way back is 1,000% Irish and little English. My great great grandmother was German. However, the first Clarissa was German.

Ari: Wow. Now I’m gonna ask you a question that I think a lot of people in my audience are thinking to themselves about. And that is, so you made it, you became a model, you became an actress, you followed your dreams, and you made it? What kind of advice would you give to my audience of all the little girls and mid age girls and all the girls that are thinking myself? Wow, that is something that I want to do? What advice can you give them?

Clarissa: Well, first of all, you know, modeling industry has changed a lot since I was in it. And it’s a lot, it’s a healthier place to be, you’re going to want to make sure that until you’re 18 there is some sort of guidance, parental guidance, no matter where you go, you know, whatever you do, no matter where you travel, you know, someone that is with you at all times. Be really wary of the kind of online kind of situations I’m not saying they’re all bad, but there are a lot of online modeling kind of situations that are not always up and up. And there are always predators out there. So be very, very mindful of that. If you are going with a bonafide agency you will go onto their website will Amina Ford elite, whatever it might be local to you make sure that you know when you they see girls, sometimes they’ll see you in person, usually the first the first introduction is by email. So they will want you to send them some pictures of you that you want to do headshots and other things, you know, body shots in a bathing suit, and very like makeups and that in and if they are interested in D then you will get a call back make sure that you tell them how much you weigh and how tall you are. But you know, the the the actual standards have changed as much a lot since then. I mean, there was there. There are websites for petite girls, there are websites now for curvier girls, I mean, it’s much more inclusive than it used to be, which I think is it was wonderful.

Ari: Wow. Thanks so much. Now if people want to get in touch with you, they heard you there. They’re getting really really excited about the possibilities and they said I need to talk to I need to talk to Clarissa what would be the best way for people to get in touch with

Clarissa: you must talk to me my website my email is Clarissa Clarissa burt.com where you can find me anywhere on social with the exception of Snapchat. Do not Snapchat I don’t even know what the heck it is really. You can find me? Clarissa Bert pretty much anywhere across social.


Ari: Wow. Wow. Clarissa, thanks so much for sharing your story with my audience. It was great. Good luck going forward. I know that you’ve done great things. I think you can continue to do great things. Remember the What is it 60s, the new 40 You know, I certainly feel that way. Hey, now. Hey, now. I also believe that so thank you so much. You’re listening to whispers and bricks and I’m Eurostyle Schomer. Remember, if you feel like you’re stuck in the mud, like you’re spinning your wheels, wasting time and your career business or life. If you know you’re just not enjoyable success, satisfaction and significance that you desire. And it’s time for you to book a call with me at www dot a call with rei.com Check out my whispers and bricks Coaching Academy and until next time, listen to the whispers avoid the breaks and never, ever give up on your dreams.

96.  Joe Templin Learning To Adapt

93. Lauren Lefkowitz Overcoming Chronic Pain

Lauren Lefkowitz Overcoming Chronic Pain


Lauren had a very successful career in HR that she liked but she was hiding a secret. She was suffering from chronic pain that was undiagnosed. In order to hide it she worked harder. She basically just worked and slept. After finally getting some help with a diagnosis from the Mayo Clinic and suffering another medical brick of breaking both her shoulders. She started to hear the whispers that it was time for a change in her career. After going through extensive rehabilitation to be able to use her shoulder she returned to work and then covid hit. She knew it was time to make a change. She now is a career coach and she is living a life she loves. She reminds us that if you want to you can always make a change in your life.

Show notes:



Episode Transcription


Intro Plays


Ari: Welcome to whispers and bricks. My name is Ari Schonbrun. I’m your host I have with me as my guest today, Lauren Lefkowitz who is an executive leadership coach, partnering with clients to escape the trap of being fine. And break the work, sleep repeat cycle. Lauren partners with individuals and small to medium sized businesses to support clients who are ready to find joy, excitement, challenge, and balance their careers and have a personal life to love. Lauren was an 80 hour week executive is a recovering people pleaser, and has lived with chronic illness for 15 years. And once she actually broke both of our shoulder, shoulders, chasing a vacuum that’s going to be an exciting part of our discussion today. I’m sure she was living in the fine trap. For years, everything is fine, convincing yourself that working all the time and never feeling well. We’re just part of life. Despite these challenges, she decided to take control of her life. She learned to set boundaries, create opportunities for personal choice and re launch her own life to find her version of success and joy. Now she coaches people in teams who function the way she used to, and find their own versions of amazing. Lauren makes it comfortable to get uncomfortable, create powerful goals and create real sustainable career and life transformation. Please help me welcome Lauren. Lefkowitz. Lauren, how are you? I’m so well how are you? Living the dream living the dream always, always amazing. It absolutely is. Absolutely. It’s great seeing you. And thank you so much for coming on the show. I really, really appreciate it. Now, as you know, the name of the podcast is whispers and bricks, the whispers are those voices telling you what the right thing to do is and they represent the good in life. And the bricks represent the bad things that we go through in life. And we all know that, you know, life is not a straight road. It’s not a straight line, many ups and downs, many bumps in the road, we get hit with many bricks, I got hit with mine and 911. All of my guests have been hit with a brick at some point in time in their lives. And that’s why we do the show, to show people that no matter what you’re going through, there are 1000s of people that are going through the exact same thing and you are not alone. Now your life seemed really good. You climb the ladder of success became an HR executive. Things were going well until you got hit with the first brick. you wound up with chronic illnesses. Tell us about that.

Lauren: Yeah, thanks. Yeah, so I saw early careers, tried a couple of different things, found HR and really loved it and was enjoying my life enjoying my career. And when I was 29 years old, I had a grand mal seizure that came out of nowhere. And we never exactly discovered what caused it. And it caused this trigger effect of my body attacking itself and having an autoimmune response to itself. And my respiratory system, my endocrine system, my dermatologists, dermatological system, everything just went in reverse. And I every year or two would get a new illness, a new set of symptoms, a new set of medications. Eventually, I was led to the Mayo Clinic where I got a really comprehensive evaluation from a number of different specialties. And they theorized that I had had a virus that attacked my brain. And my brain’s response was to panic and try to protect my body and in effect it over protected my body and made me really sick. And so every time I would go to a new doctor, I’d get a new set of bloodwork and have new issues and I had muscular issues, I had fatigue issues. And eventually was on 23 pills a day, and an inhaler. And new symptoms and new things were coming up for about seven or eight years. I spent over two years in physical therapy, rebuilding my muscular system and, and retraining my brain to ask my muscular system to do stuff because it wasn’t connecting anymore. And all of that time can I ask you something,



Ari:okay. How do you like retrain your brain to connect with your body. Yeah. How does that happen?

Lauren: I didn’t do it. I mean, I guess I did my brain, my brain reconnected. But I went to someone who specializes

Ari: Okay, so you’ve got all this stuff going on? God. And this lasted for eight, nine years.

Lauren: Yeah, so the you know, from sort of start to a good maintenance level, and it still lives with me, it’s, you know, it’s more than 15 years later, and I still take 23 pills a day, I still have an inhaler. I still have a lot of specialists. But everything is maintained. So I feel like I’m living well, now. I’m good. Thank you.

Ari: Good. 20 sales and hail whoever. But you know what, God bless you look great.



Lauren: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was about fighting for myself. When I went to doctors who said there was nothing wrong with me, it was about wanting to live well. And knowing that there had to be something better than what was happening to me at the time. But it’s there’s a lot of embarrassment associated with chronic illness because you don’t see it. So you assume that people are fine. And you associate tired with lazy and you associate and when I say you, I you know, it’s really more me, right? It’s in you internalize. I’m this like, really tough, really vibrant person, I don’t want anybody to know, I’m six. I don’t want them to think I can’t do the job. I don’t want them to think I can’t participate in things that I shouldn’t be a leader. And so as I was getting sicker and sicker, I was working harder and harder to compensate.

Ari: So I was gonna ask, but you just answered the question. Were you working throughout this whole period? And the answer obviously is yes, you are. Yeah. That’s a it’s just mind boggling. It’s absolutely amazing. Okay, so you still live with it? There are no outside symptoms that I can tell. So you know, thank God for that. But as time went on, right, I think you got hit with a second brick. Another major brick kid. Yeah. A slip and fall. Are please tell us about that. Because I know you told me a little bit about it my audience. I don’t mean to be mean or anything but they need a good laugh.

Lauren: Look, it’s the funniest and most terrible thing that has ever happened to me. And you can’t help but laugh about it because it is so ridiculous. And also I fortunately recovered. And thank God you know that there’s there was a lot of hard work in there and a lot of luck. But yeah, so I was in the process of organizing my apartment. I live in a condo and every once in a while you know you just want to go through everything purge everything clean the baseboards really just make the place shine. And in my pursuit of perfection. I had almost gotten there wherever there is right in our minds. And last, the last thing I was doing was running my Roomba vacuum you know the robot vacuums that self clean. And it was a snow day. So I was I was at home this was you know in the before times when we used to go to offices all the time. And I was home for the day working from my couch and I saw the Roomba going towards an unplugged glass lamp. And I thought oh my gosh, the Roomba is going to hit the glass is going to hit the cord. The lamps gonna shatter on the wood floor. I’ve got to get to it right split second decision, jumped off the couch ran across the wood floor in my socks slipped on my way over to the Roomba reached my arms out in front of me to try to catch the table that was way too far away to catch. And my arms went over my head I slammed down face first and I broke both of my shoulders. The Roomba turned the Roomba did its job. So if you have a robot vacuum, trust it, trust it to sense things and make its turn it did not go for the lamp. And it turned out in that fall that I broke both of my shoulders.

Ari: Oh my god. Yeah. And I’m assuming that put you out of work for a little while.

Lauren: That did that one took me out. 10 years of chronic illness and I just like powered through. But yes, when you break both of your shoulders, you can no longer type on a computer. So I was able to get myself into a seated position was able to sort of crawl over on my butt to my phone and phone, a friend who came over and we called an ambulance. And sure enough, I broken both of my shoulders, and I lived in rehab centers, and hospitals for about three months. And then I was at home for a month before I could really get out. I had to be able to open doors, right, which you use your shoulders for everything, even now we’re talking and our shoulders move as we’re expressing ourselves. And so I had to rebuild both shoulders at the same time, in order to get back to my regular life.

Ari: Wow, how did what like what do they do for that when you break the shoulder?



Lauren: Well, it depends on the break. For one shoulder, they just immobilized it and they had been a sling for the other shoulder, they had to rebuild it, put it back together, I’ve got a plate and it doesn’t screws in that arm forever. And so I was Double Sling, because they can’t cast your shoulders right easily. So I had two slings criss crossed across me. And when I was able to I had to start learning to eat with my non dominant hand, which was the first one I was allowed to use and brush my teeth and all of that. But if you imagine losing the ability to use your shoulders, you can’t go to the bathroom on your own. You can’t feed yourself, Take glasses off of your face, you can’t do anything. People would come and visit me and they bring me magazines, and they’d walk in and they go Oh

Ari:was it thinking oh my. Sorry. Wow. Yeah,

Lauren: it was quite a time.

Ari: Wow. That’s it’s just like alright, so you’re out for a while. I guess what was what was going through airports like you set off the machines every time.

Lauren: Fortunately, whatever kind of metal This is, does not set off a metal detector. I didn’t need a you know, a spare parts card or anything to carry with me.

Ari: Okay, great. Yeah. So. So after this, you went back to work again. But this time, but this time, I think things were a little different. As memory serves me correct, you no longer really enjoyed what you were doing as much as you liked the HR business. You started listening to some whispers? Tell us about that.

Lauren: Yeah, so I, you know, I think the first whisper was in the form of a metaphor and breaking my shoulders. Because my MO as a professional, as someone who was working with chronic illness as someone who was a people pleaser, and a workaholic. I was also a chronic hand raiser. And so if there was a project to be done, if there was a room full of people, and somebody said, who will own this, who will wake up in the morning thinking about this, I was always raising my hand. And so I was sort of the vice president of everything I was, I was the VP of HR, but I was sort of the vice president of any project that came up. And the immediate joke when I broke my shoulders was you literally cannot raise your hand Lauren. So it was this metaphorical life lesson, right of stop raising your hand you have your hands have been put down. And I promised myself that when I went back to work, it would be different. And I had been job searching a little bit before the fall, because I wasn’t enjoying HR the way that I used to. And so I was trying to figure out, is it HR? Is it the company? Is it you know, the whole profession, what what am I not satisfied with. And I had this accident and I went back to work with the promise to myself that I was going to get some balance, I wasn’t going to work these 80 to 100 hour work weeks anymore, I was going to stay in my own lane so that I could figure out if I really still liked HR, or if I was using these other projects as an excuse to stay busy and interested. And I just went back to my old ways, working all the time, raising my hand for everything, feeling extreme gratitude for my company being so kind to me while I was out for four months, which is a long time and also feeling guilt that I had missed that time and things were behind and and then the pandemic started. And everybody turned to me because I was the go to person and also human resources. And they said there’s a pandemic, what do we do? And I thought, well, it’s my first pandemic too. And so I had this whole new workload of what to do with an entire staff a building We were in the process of constructing our new office space, a million dollar project that I was in charge of, not surprisingly, and, and I had to figure it all out. And I thought, This is it, this is the sign this is I don’t want this to be the rest of my life that I’m just the pickup for everything that comes along. And so I had always done side gig work first as a resume writer than, you know, teaching people how to job search. And that eventually led to coaching as a side business. And I also coached employees internally, it was never part of my job description. But it was always the thing I looked most forward to, it was the thing I would squeeze in no matter how much I had on my plate. And I was speaking to a friend who had been coaching, and had put something up on Facebook about coaching, and we reached out to each other. And I was talking to her about coaching as an occupation on its own. And I said, you know, I don’t know that you can actually really make money with coaching, she said, I do. And that began my my path to figuring out how to be a coach myself, I hired her as my coach, right? To help me untangle from all of this overworking and from the connection, I had to chronic illness being a weakness, and therefore I had to compensate by working all the time, that was my platform was nobody will know I’m sick. So I’ll work twice as hard as everybody else. So they’ll think I have the most energy of anybody. And then I’ll go home and sleep until the next morning when I have to work again. And that’s where the work, sleep repeat comes in. And and so I started on my path to figuring out how to become a full time coach, I hired a business coach myself, and told that business coach that I wanted to be doing this full time within five years, and she said, How about six months? And there I went. And in six months I was out on my own and it is exactly what I want to do. It is exactly the career I was made for.

Ari: Great. Let me ask you something, during the time that you had the chronic illness and you broke the shoulders and everything else, do you ever reach a point where you were like so low that you went like, you know what, this is too hard, I can’t do it given up on my dreams, I don’t care. And you know, I’m gonna roll up into a ball and die. And if you if you did get to that point, obviously you made a great comeback. Alright, so the question is, how did you manage the comeback?

Lauren: Yeah. Oh, such a great question. So I remember this, this moment in time, I was in my mid 30s. And I was seeing a therapist, because there’s a lot of grief associated with chronic illness, it’s all of the things you thought you’d be doing. And all of the person you thought you’d become gets stunted. Because you’re working so hard to just be on normal, right and to be at level. And I remember saying to that therapist, it’s not that I want to die. But I would love to get a diagnosis where that like is, is terminal or is fixable. Because this in between, is horrible. There’s so much not knowing, you know, if I found a doctor who said, put a teaspoon of peanut butter on your nose every morning for the rest of your life, and you’ll be healthy, I would have done that. If I had found a doctor who had said this is terminal, you have six months get your affairs in order, I would have had something to do. Being in that in between and not having an official diagnosis or an official way to make it better. We’re an official knowing that it’s going in one direction or another is like this abyss of uncertainty and hopelessness. And so that was my lowest point. And what I learned from that was I could stop there. I could let all of this get worse, I could become homebound. I could get a handicap parking permit. I could go on some sort of disability. And I could just give up. And that’s not my way. And what I realized was I needed an answer. Whether the answer was we’ll never know. But here’s how you live well with it. Whether the answer was this this terminal or whether the answer is here’s how you get better. I needed something and so I doubled down on finding new doctors. And I doubled down on dismissing the doctors who said oh, you know lots of women in their 30s are tired. That’s just what happens as you get older, exercise more and right i I know I, you know, it’s you scoff at it. But there are a lot of doctors out there who have opinions about, you know, there was a point in time where I gained 20 pounds in six weeks. Totally not normal. They found what was causing it and they treated it. But it was so fast that my skin hurt. And I went to one doctor, and he said, Well, you’re gaining weight, because you’re not exercising. And I said, I just did a 39 mile charity walk. I couldn’t complete the whole walk. But I did about 25 miles of it. So it’s not like I’m not trying, right? And so what what that incentivize me to do when I realized that I was in this hopelessness, was to find doctors who would help me. And what I finally came across was a doctor a rheumatologist who’s wonderful, who said to me, you have to stop going to individual doctors, let’s get you into a clinic. And he wrote me a really compelling letter for the Mayo Clinic to take me in as a patient who gets passed around to all the departments. And that’s what, that’s what ultimately helped me.

Ari: That was in the Mayo Clinic. Wow.

Lauren: I mean, I’ve again, obviously, who hasn’t heard of the Mayo Clinic? I never knew anybody that actually was there. Yeah. But it’s, I guess it’s a tremendous testimonial to, to the Mayo Clinic, I guess. Wow. That’s, that’s just amazing. And they were able to help you they found whatever it was, and they, and they worked with it. And today, you’re living a more comfortable life, I assume?

Lauren: Yeah, I’m living really well, I’m living the best I’ve lived in my adult life. Wow. And I’m having a lot of fun.



Ari: That, hey, you know what, it’s the most important part. Let me ask you this, who’s the one person that you would point to? That you would say had the most influence in your life? And why?

Lauren: Who, you know, you told me in advance this question was coming, and I just keep thinking about it. And who can choose one, right? But for the purposes of this conversation, I will choose my grandmother, my maternal grandmother, okay. Why she was just a really tough lady. And funny, she kept her sense of humor. And she had lost her eyesight throughout my mom’s childhood. And wow, they thought that it had happened through a fall, that she had felt fallen and hit her head. But it turned out to be multiple sclerosis, which they didn’t know until she was in late adulthood. Because they didn’t have the tests back in the mid 1900s. To figure out what it was. And so here’s a woman who lost her eyesight, who lived independently. My grandfather passed when I was about three. And she had helped my mom and her sister, you know, came frequently to help. But she continued going grocery shopping, living on her own cooking your own food, she sewed. And, and she just stayed involved in life, she took a walk every single day. And despite this illness, that caused her to lose her vision. She just kept doing it. And for me, as I navigated through my chronic illness, I thought of that all the time. You just keep doing it. You just keep going. Because the alternative is you give up and you live a terrible life. Yeah. So you take what you have, you take what you can do, you use the energy you can use. And you make the very best of it. And then you keep doing that. And as it gets better. And as it gets worse you adapt. But there’s always an opportunity to be resilient and to be tough. And to choose to go ahead anyway, even though you’re sick even though you’re tired, and, and to figure out how to work around all of the stuff that gets in your way.

Ari: Wow, that’s that’s incredible. She’s still with us.



Lauren: She’s not,

Ari: she’s not okay. Where was she? Like, where was she born? Was she born in America?

Lauren: Well, she was born in Austria, and came over here when she was two. So she essentially grew up here. My grandfather came over from Poland when he was 18.

Ari: And when was that was that before the war?

Lauren: That was right before the war. So the Cossacks were in Poland and his whole his whole family was lost in the Holocaust. So he was the only one who made it over right

Ari: and your grandmother was was basically move was here already so she Yeah, I hear okay. Wow. That’s That’s fascinating. Now do you have any words of wisdom before we go any words of wisdom for my audience something you could leave them where some of the some takeaway that they can take with Um,

Lauren: I think my, one of my mantras is, you always have a choice. Things happen to us all the time. Terrible things happen to us terrible things happen to our friends and family. You always have a choice in now what? Right? And so you can decide in your life and your career. If you don’t like what’s happening. Now what? There’s always a place to start from and look in another direction.

Ari: Wow, that’s great. You know what that just follows along the format of this podcast whispers in bricks, you have a choice. You can listen to the whispers or you can wait for the break. And obviously, you chose to listen to those whispers because the bricks weren’t a whole lot of fun, was it? That’s true. Okay, Lauren, before we go, if people want to get in touch with you, where can they find you? What’s the best way to do that? You have a website, email, but social media. Come on, give it all to us.



Lauren:  You got it. So I am super active on LinkedIn. Under my name, Lauren Lefkowitz, I have a website with a tool that can help you discover if you’re fine. And if you’re stuck in the trap of being fine. And that website is fine. Is a trap.com. And my website

Ari: whoa, wait, wait, wait. Oops, sorry. Yeah, give me that again. What was the website?

Lauren: Fine. Is a trap.com. 

So it’s F I N E. I S A T R A P. Dot crumbed. Yeah. Wonderful. Okay, that’s one that’s a website. Good.

Lauren: And my main website is Lauren Lefkowitz, coach.com,

Lauren Lefkowitz, coach that calm. So those are the best ways or I guess I assume that if you go on social media, they can find you. They can click, and then they’ll get to you. Correct. Absolutely. 


Ari: That’s wonderful. Lauren, thanks so much for sharing your story with my audience. It was it’s truly inspiring. Good luck going forward. You’re doing great. I’m so happy that our paths crossed that you agreed to come on my show. I think my audience has gained a lot from your story. So thanks again. I look forward to seeing you in the future. You’ve been listening to whispers and bricks and I’m your host Gary Sharma. And remember, if you feel like you’re stuck in the mud like you’re spinning your wheels, wasting time in your career, your business your life. If you know you’re not enjoying all the success, satisfaction significance that you desire, then it’s time for you to book a call with me at www dot call with ari.com Check out my whispers and bricks Coaching Academy. And until next time, listen to the whispers avoid the breaks and never ever give up on your dreams. Bye for now.

96.  Joe Templin Learning To Adapt

92. Lindsey Jewell Part 3 The Road To Recovery

Lindsey Jewell Part 3 The Road To Recovery


Lindsey Jewell shares the last part of her story with us her recovery. She has faced so many bricks and finally is in recovery from her addiction. She now shares her story to help others deal with some of the bricks she has faced. Her story reminds that you can overcome any brick no matter how large or how many are thrown at us.

Show notes:




Episode Transcription


Intro Plays




Ari: Welcome to whispers of bricks. My name is Ari Schonbrun. I’m your host today. My guest is Lindsey jewel. This is actually part three of Lindsey story, Lindsay, how you doing today? Yeah, okay.

Lindsey: I am okay.

Ari: Good. I know, it was a little rough last time that we spoke. And it was it kind of worked out well, because we’re out of time anyway. So gave you a chance to breathe gave me a chance to breathe. And now we’re back here. Okay. And I think this is part three, the last part. And so let’s pick it up where we left off. They just convicted, they gave a life sentence to the person who molested you when you were a child. And you’re totally traumatized again, which led you back to that? Addiction?



Lindsey: Yeah. So yes, I wasn’t hard being right by Mexico anyways to find drugs. So got back in school. I mean, I was doing pills. I was doing cocaine. I didn’t care at this point. I was in a bad marriage. I, I didn’t even want to live anymore. I ended up in this unit. But still ended up failing your analysis for Coke. I mean, I didn’t even care at this point, honestly. But so I got discharged from the military, for the substance abuse. But I didn’t get a dishonorable I got a general under honorable conditions. I wrote our post commander, like a 10 page thesis explaining, look what happened. I’ll let you know why I did the actions I did. Let me tell you what I deal with. Does it make your right, you know, but I do get benefits from the VA, for severe, you know, PTSD and drug addiction in remission, as part of my payments, you know, which is which is nice. So yeah, so I get out of the military. And at this point, I feel like an absolute failure. My second marriage was nothing at this point, you felt like roommates, we split up, we split up and oh, my god, he just got like a severance pay for like $40,000 back dated from the VA, and gave me 100 bucks out of it. And I had a child with him, he took off, you know, to New York, I went back home. And at this time I had been in the military injured my back so I was able to get continue the pain pills, you know, which was, you know, becoming a very new and nicer addiction, not nicer addiction, which I don’t know what the word is where I could cover it up better. Maybe that’s the word. Because somehow in your head, if it’s written by a doctor, it makes it a little bit better. And you’re not such a loser addict because the doctors read for it. And so get out of the military and splitter with my husband and at age 33. Let’s see, I’m sorry, this is when the whole supposed pain pill epidemic happened, which there has always been an epidemic with opiates. I don’t know why they just made that a big thing. But so the pills kind of got shut off or they stopped. A lot of doctors stopped right numb and a lot of people got cut off and stuff. So then comes heroin. A lot of people know that tale from the pain pills, the expense of the pain pills and the amount of pain pills or whatever and the sickness that opiates cause when you withdrawal off of them is horrible. Absolutely horrible. And so then find heroin. At this point. Honestly, I I didn’t have much life in me. It was like I felt like I really felt like you know, because I was raised with with God. I was raised with a God who loved unconditionally, but had all these conditions and I felt like I must have screwed up some of these conditions because he must have hated me. You know because Um, why why did he do this to me? Why did why did these events happen to me, you know, and you know, I never thought I’d stick a needle in my arm. It’s another never than I thought I’d never do. And I did. And at this point, I really wanted it to take my life away. Because I was so ashamed with myself and ashamed with things. And I did go to treatment, again for the opiates, because that’s one I couldn’t fight off on my own. I, I would try to get cleaned by myself at my house, and I just didn’t have the willpower to say no, it’s very, it’s very different addiction than Coke, still physical, but a different physical dependence. And so now I got a treatment. And you know, people told me I was going to do so good, and so well, and the moment I walked out that door, it’s like, I sabotage myself because I guess I didn’t believe in myself. You know, at that point in my life, I don’t even know it feel uncomfortable to laugh, sober, it felt uncomfortable, to not have substance. Like I didn’t even know what normal felt like anymore. And started making friends and treatment centers, you know, thinking and like I said, it’s a good old trauma bond. I mean, these people had nothing in common except addiction and traumatic past. And so then I get into the criminal justice system. With addiction, it only ends it doesn’t matter how many times you write the story, it ends the same way in jails institutions or death. It really does. Doesn’t matter what class of people you come from doesn’t matter what you look like it’ll it’ll take you down and so I get my first criminal charge in my 30s Get a felony charge go to jail.



Ari: And that was that was for what for possession of

Lindsey: I do have no I did get a possession charge this one was it was a second degree burglary is what it was. What I had to take a plea to and it wasn’t wasn’t even like that. But that’s the charge I had to take. Okay, I got involved with people who are more in the criminal world and I what it all relates to you as you’re waiting for drugs and decided to go mopey around mope around the my apartment complex because some of these places people less stuff that was from evictions and stuff but you know, just went too far and some of this stuff was people’s property you know, but like I said, it all stems around drugs and so yeah, I get my first felony charge and then I get a second charge I think maybe six months later with the possession charge at this point my parents like wanted nothing to do with me I was a complete mess. The only I felt like there were no real friends in the world like I bought friends just in the drug world like it’s just I had never known the street life I couldn’t believe that at one time I was a college you know college graduate and and thought I was better and all these people now I’m like a person on like a bad don’t know like a like a typical like junkie is what I labeled myself as like just this loser addict who had no purpose in their life anymore. And then we’ll come to this next nice traumatic event, which is absolutely horrible, but so getting involved with people in the street life, you come across gang members, you come across all sorts of characters and so one of the guys that I used to buy drugs from was a gang member not that I cared but so I was not just raped by one man I was sexually assaulted. He made all the other gang members come and assault me as well. This was 2020 2014 when this happened, so I was an adult. And you know, it sucks because I justified the relapse when I went to meet up with this guy because I saw my I was watching my uncle died of alcoholism like literally he died he was highlighter yellow. And in my brain that was enough to make me go out and use and you know that assault was like reliving things as a child but as a full grown adult. And so, when that happened, it was absolutely oh my god, you want to talk about dissociative. The next day, my friend was driving me to the hospital. This is where I really I, I had some damage done to me. i We were driving to we were driving to the hospital, and I decided to jump out of a moving vehicle. Well, you can annex the things that transpired before not just the assault, my parents had shut off my phone, they thought that I was just very calm. They didn’t know I went out and relapsed. They shut off my phone, I didn’t have anybody. I was sitting in a hospital parking lot. had nobody had nobody, and was trying to get in this hospital because these people had done. Like I said, it wasn’t one person, it was multiple people. And, you know, I called the VA crisis line and said, I’m not trying to kill myself, but I was sexually assaulted. And I don’t know what to do. And they had a lady from one of these domestic violence, crisis centers come out and complete stranger and walk with me into the hospital. And to find out that we needed to go to another hospital that there was only one hospital that actually did the forensics test. And they were kind of busy at the moment, because there’s only two forensic nurses that work there. And I was like, So what do you tell me, I just got assaulted, went to the wrong hospital, embarrass myself, and now need to wait for, like, so many hours to get the courage to go back to another hospital. Right. And 

I will tell you that day I was I was completely, I walked into my therapists office without an appointment. I didn’t know where to go. I don’t know. I was, that was bad. It was really a hard time. My therapist ended up calling my parents and saying, look something you know, your daughter was assaulted, she’s not in good shape. My parents felt awful for turning off the phones, they turn the phone back on. So I get with my best friend who was taking me to the hospital. And as we were driving, she was also an she was in a not so healthy marriage also right. She started turning the car back towards her home because her husband was mad that she didn’t say goodbye to him. And that’s all it took for me. That’s all it took. She’s still my best friend to this day. And she’s out of that marriage. And but that’s all it took for me. In that moment. I said your best friend was not just assaulted by one but multiple people in your I didn’t call her nice name is turning this car around. Because your husband is mad that you didn’t say goodbye, I said f you and everybody else in this place. And I looked behind me to make sure for some reason that there wasn’t a car right behind. Because I knew I was jumping out of the car. And I at least felt kind enough in my heart to not let her watch me get mangled by a car like that. It’s a horrible I’m just telling you is going through my mind. So I opened the door and the car door and just bolted out and bolted out. And it’s really weird. I didn’t remember losing consciousness. All of a sudden, there’s an ambulance and police officers come in. I didn’t even know what what what had happened. I knew I jumped out of a car, right? But I didn’t know I just thought like, Okay, I just jumped out of a car. And the paramedics were putting me in, like the neck brace and stuff. Like why are they being so nice to me? And I said, I’m so sorry, I just had a really bad day. I’m trying to get to the hospital. And they’re like, it’s okay. It’s okay. It’d be really nice to me. And so, get to the hospital and all sudden I’m in this big like, like operating kind of type room, right? I’m like, why am I in here? Like what happened? Like I didn’t, I didn’t feel pain. I didn’t probably shock. Probably what it was, um, I kept saying I need to call my parents I need to call my parents. And this doctor said, Okay, call your parents and I said, Mom, I’m in the hospital. She didn’t she was freaking out. I guess she called every hospital because my friend told her I jumped out of a car but didn’t know what hospital I went to. And I guess I was under Jane Doe. So my mother thought I was dead. She didn’t know if I was dead or alive. So anyways, the doctor gets on the phone and says, Hi ma’am. This is a neurologist and I’m like, neurologist, why am I with a neurologist, you know, and he says your daughter jumped from a moving car, she has busted the back of her skull, there is bleeding in the brain, and we are doing more tests to see if we need to do surgery, or whatever. And I was just stunned. Like, I guess that’s what your body does when it goes to like, tremendous amount of trauma. Like I didn’t feel anything. And then he the doctor, and he was such a nice neurologist or good, nice guy. He goes, give her a shot. I need to give her a shot of fentanyl or something like that. It’s one of those pain medicines. I said, No, you can’t do that. I’m a heroin addict and just did nothing. He goes, I didn’t ask you, if you were an opiate addict. He says I’m giving you a shot of I don’t know, fentanyl, or whatever. And Mr. Robot who knows, yeah, something like that. And I told him, he said, what he knew something that I said I was very badly sexually assaulted. I was trying to get to the hospital. I can’t tell you I jumped out of the car. And so like in this moment, I’m also an officer, a police officer comes in, he’s like, do you want to make a statement for this sexual assault, and I couldn’t even think straight. I was like, no, he’s a gang member, I don’t want to get killed. You know, I’ll tell you the next day. I felt the head injury, I couldn’t even brush my hair.

Um, so I’m assuming that shock that probably went through my body. So it just doesn’t feel it. But oh, my God for a week I was in the hospital. They took the fingernail clippings did all this DNA and stuff like that, which eventually, a few years later, finally matched up with the guy. Because when I found out this guy not had been sexually assaulting women using their drug addiction as a control mechanism for him to do these things, right? They never stepped forward. Because in their minds, they think nobody’s going to believe me, I’m just nothing. I felt like I should say something. And this is kind of part of why I tell my story here now, because I feel like if my story can get somebody out of those bad situations, or help or something like that is my obligation. Like, so yeah. When I found out this man had been raping women for a long time, and it was a known fact, right? You know, I wasn’t gonna let him hurt one more woman. So I did tell the police what happened. I told him I never want to testify. That’s not That’s not what happened. And so, time goes on. It sucks that in that next year, I was still in the midst of my drug addiction, and was robbed by two guys that were supposed friends of mine and jumped from another moving vehicle to save my life because they put a gun to the back of my head. I mean, at this point, trauma becomes so normal to my life. Right? And that I feel like it didn’t even faze me, like I laughed it off. Like it’s sad. You know, but kind of almost done with this story. But

Ari: I was gonna say, let’s, let’s, obviously, you know, it’s just been crazy. You know, you’ve you’ve been in and out of jail, your husband’s had been in and out of jail. You’ve got, you’ve now got three kids. But the good thing is, and people need to know this, that you’ve been sober for a year now. And you’re sharing your story with the world? Let’s see you wrote a book. I did tell us what, what kind of a book what was that? Is that the story of your life?



Lindsey: Yes, that is the story more in depth of my life from I called it the cycle of sevens because it seemed like every seven years, I had some very, very traumatic event and experiences and it goes through kind of my belief systems at the time, why I believe these things and and how I’ve healed, you know, and all the places and information all the support systems that have helped my healing tremendously.

Ari: So you’re doing therapy groups? I do. Yeah. And I understand you’re loving yourself more and more, which is so important to the healing process. Yes, yeah, you vowed never to repeat any of these cycles again, God willing.

Lindsey: Yes. That is one thing I would say as advice for anybody is to look at your patterns, look at your patterns. And if they’re unhealthy, learn why you’re doing, you know, kind of free yourself from those. Wow.



Ari: Lindsay, it’s, it’s quite a story. And again, I have to thank you so much for, you know, stepping up and, you know, as Pat as painful as it was to tell your story, to let people know that, you know, it’s not, you know, even even in the best of families, things like this happen. So don’t think if you’re, if you’re, you know, if you come from a good family that you’re immune, and don’t think that everybody who’s poor winds up like this, because that’s not true, either. So you just have to understand that, you know, you have to understand the signs. And, you know, get help quickly. And let me ask you this, do you have like a website, or anything, if people want to get in touch with you, they want, you know, they just need somebody to talk to or somebody that that might give them some advice or whatever. If you’re up if you’re open to that, if you’re not a true, I totally understand. Okay,



Lindsey: I have I have Instagram, I have Instagram and Facebook. I don’t know if I sent those two, but so they can find it under your name, Lindsey, Joel,

Lindsey as your 09 28. And then I have an email too, which is Lindsey Jules 09 twenty@gmail.com. But angels with two L’s, right it is with two L’s Yes, yes. And my Yes. Yeah. And just if somebody sends me a message or something, just let me know how you heard because sometimes people just strange people.

Ari: Right. So if you’re going to get in touch with Lindsay just mentioned that you heard her on, on the whispers and bricks podcast, and she will be able to respond to you. Lindsay, thanks so much for sharing your story with my audience. Good luck going forward. The best all the best and only the best. You been listening to whispers and bricks and I’m your host Gary Shermer. Remember, if you feel like you’re stuck in the mud, like you’re spinning your wheels, wasting time, your career, your business your life. If you know you’re not enjoying all the success, satisfaction and significance that you desire, then it’s time for you to book a call with me at www dot call with ari.com. Check out my whispers of bricks Coaching Academy until next time, listen to the whispers avoid the bricks and never ever give up on your dreams for now.